Torn between flats and rounds - or is it the bass?

[walknbluez]

I've had flats on my MIM Fender Jazz for several years and on gigs people would comment on how good the bass sounds in the mix. I recently got a USA Fender Precision with Rotosound swing 66's. At first I really liked that "piano" sound when playing by myself and I thought they would sound awesome in the mix, like I'd get some growl out of them. But alas, I can't seem to find the tone I like. I'm playing through a Peavey VB2 all tube amp. I'm still going to try some different amp settings tomorrow.

I do like the deep bottom end when playing notes on the E string. I don't get that as much on the Jazz with flats. But, at least in the rudimentary rehearsal recordings, there seems to be alot of muddiness. Perhaps its the amp settings which need to be tweaked for a P with rounds vs. the amp settings I use with the Jazz with flats. The notes aren't as defined. Is it the strings? Or is it the nature of the P? I just want to avoid mud.

I know the answer is "just gotta try them out and see how they sound" but I thought I'd get some input here first to see if you think I would see an improvement in tone, I really like playing this P bass (rather than just play the Jazz on upcoming gigs).

Maybe flats are the better match for the current band configuration I'm in (rock trio). For trios, I like that old school sound....Black Sabbath, Grand Funk Railroad, Savoy Brown.

In the end, whatever sounds good in the mix is what I'm after. Is the answer a P with flats? Hmmmm. If you're so inclined, have a listen to some of the tunes at my page and let me know if you think it would be a good match.

[king_biscuit]

To my ears flats sound better on a Precision than they do on a Jazz, so yeah, give them a try.

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by king_biscuit

To my ears flats sound better on a Precision than they do on a Jazz, so yeah, give them a try.

Yeah, not the first time I've heard this. Another vote for flats on the P.

[Craig_S]

What brand of flats have you been using on the Jazz?

What I'm missing when I listen to your bass is clarity. The mids that define the notes are missing. The songs lend themselves to a slightly more aggressive bass sound, IMO.

[ljazz]

I agree with Craig in that there seems to be some mid punch missing. My guess is that you ran both pups wide open on those recordings. If you're set on the jazz sporting flats, then I'd roll off some bridge pickup..... that may help get things a bit more aggressive.

I like to run flats on my P's, and rounds on the J's. But there is nothing wrong with flats on the J. I'd have to do a search, but someone posted a reply to a thread a few weeks back, and he played Peg with a Jazz sporting chromes..... it sounded fabulous.

(Damn, now I've got myself thinking about putting flats back on my Jazz..... I hate that!.... lol.)

Anyway, flats on the P should give you a bit more aggresive punch (but that kinda depends on what flat you put on there), and rounds on the jazz (then manipulating tone and pickup blend as the tunes require) will give a bunch more versatility.

[spellcaster]

Perhaps some Sadowsky blue nickles?

[eyecandy]

i'd prefer playing with flats on P's or even J's unless slapping is really needed..

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by Craig_S

What brand of flats have you been using on the Jazz?

What I'm missing when I listen to your bass is clarity. The mids that define the notes are missing. The songs lend themselves to a slightly more aggressive bass sound, IMO.

On the Jazz, I'm using D'Addario Chromes. The caveat is that when we did the recordings, we did just two takes of each song and I used a MIM Fender P with black beauties on one take and a Fender Jazz with flats on another and noted at the beginning of the song which one but when they mixed the songs they didn't bother letting me know which one they chose, so I don't know if I'm listening to the P with BB or the Jazz.

Can you give me an example of a slightly more aggressive bass sound?

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by ljazz

I agree with Craig in that there seems to be some mid punch missing. My guess is that you ran both pups wide open on those recordings. If you're set on the jazz sporting flats, then I'd roll off some bridge pickup..... that may help get things a bit more aggressive.

I like to run flats on my P's, and rounds on the J's. But there is nothing wrong with flats on the J. I'd have to do a search, but someone posted a reply to a thread a few weeks back, and he played Peg with a Jazz sporting chromes..... it sounded fabulous.

(Damn, now I've got myself thinking about putting flats back on my Jazz..... I hate that!.... lol.)

Anyway, flats on the P should give you a bit more aggresive punch (but that kinda depends on what flat you put on there), and rounds on the jazz (then manipulating tone and pickup blend as the tunes require) will give a bunch more versatility.

After both of you commented about the med punch I went to the site....its weird because on my computer (with a subwoofer) it doesn't sound as defined as when I play it in my car or home stereo.

Normally when I play the jazz, the neck pickup is around 8 or 9 and the bridge is about 4 or 5.

Can you give me some specific examples of aggressive punch? I'm not really wanting the modern rock sound you hear so often, at least I don't think I do....maybe a youtube or a name of a bass player that I might know?

[Craig_S]

Originally Posted by walknbluez

its weird because on my computer (with a subwoofer) it doesn't sound as defined as when I play it in my car or home stereo.

I used relatively flat headphones to listen to the tracks; the same ones I use with my MP-BT1. It needs some mid range definition. Your bass sounds like you rolled the tone control off.

I'm not saying you need grit in the sound. I'm saying you need definition. My P, strung with LaBella 760fl, has much more presence in the mix than you're getting. With the pickups set where you say they are, you should have some sort of presence, also.

Does your bass sound like that in a live situation?

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by Craig_S

I used relatively flat headphones to listen to the tracks; the same ones I use with my MP-BT1. It needs some mid range definition. Your bass sounds like you rolled the tone control off.

I'm not saying you need grit in the sound. I'm saying you need definition. My P, strung with LaBella 760fl, has much more presence in the mix than you're getting. With the pickups set where you say they are, you should have some sort of presence, also.

Does your bass sound like that in a live situation?

I appreciate your opinion here.

If what you are hearing is the Jazz with flats, (again I have no way of knowing because even though I prefaced each song with what bass I was using, they didn't note it when they mixed it), then yes you are absolutely correct, I usually roll the tone control down on the bass. I think I do that because when I hit notes on the G and D string with full tone on, I don't like the sound. But I'm open to trying different things. That's why I bought the P bass, I wanted more of that classic P tone and deeper lows. I haven't used the P yet live and I want to for the next gig which is why I'm trying to decide on flats vs what she's wearing now which are the rotosounds.

As for live situation, the last couple of times we had a sound guy and we were guests so I was playing through someone elses amp and so I just relied on the sound guy to dial me in. Here's a youtube clip which I think represents what's going on live. Scroll through to the :45 second mark to bypass our introduction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DEGXW...eature=related

[Craig_S]

Don't roll the tone control back too much. That classic sound was likely gotten with the controls wide open or close. Listen to some old heavy rock songs. I mean really listen to the bass guitar sound. I'm sure you'll hear what I'm trying to express.

Not all flat wounds sound the same. If you don't like the sound of the D'Addario's, try GHS. If those don't work for you, try LaBella... If none of those do it for you, replace the stock pickups in the MIM Jazz. Could be you got a dud. It happens.

I can't tell anything about your bass sound through that video camera recording. It just sounds really boxy to me.

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by Craig_S

Don't roll the tone control back too much. That classic sound was likely gotten with the controls wide open or close. Listen to some old heavy rock songs. I mean really listen to the bass guitar sound. I'm sure you'll hear what I'm trying to express.

Not all flat wounds sound the same. If you don't like the sound of the D'Addario's, try GHS. If those don't work for you, try LaBella... If none of those do it for you, replace the stock pickups in the MIM Jazz. Could be you got a dud. It happens.

Ok I'll give that a try. I will probably use the Jazz as a backup bass now that i have the P. So for that classic sound, would I be better off with flats on the P and still be able to have the definition?

[Craig_S]

My Precision sounds amazing with LaBella's on it. All I can say is try it.

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by Craig_S

My Precision sounds amazing with LaBella's on it. All I can say is try it.

Well I tried some things at rehearsal and still not happy. I opened up the tone control more and adjusted some EQ settings on my VB2....low at 4, mid at 5, and high at 2....resonance at 5, presence at 2. I played the Jazz with flats and the P with rounds. I'm playing through an Avatar 2x12. Still missing some punch I think. Not sure how to describe the live sound but the notes aren't "tight" or maybe like you said they are lacking definition.

What a puzzle this tone thing can be for us bass players. It could be any number of combinations of my fingers and technique, speaker cab, bass, bass tone controls, amp settings, strings etc. It's like where do I start? So I think I'll start with changing the strings on the P bass to flats. I'm either going to take your advice on the LaBellas or try Chromes.

[sikamikanico]

I don't know that amp, but I'd start with everything set flat (or zero). Flats should not be the problem, they are a standard (especially on a P)...

And don't forget to have your basses set up properly. I suggest finding a pro at least for the first set up (especially if the frets need some initial work).

So, after you have your P (or J) in order and with a nice set of flats , plug it straight into your amp, which you should set to zero (flat). Also, move your amp around the room to find a spot you like the best (you want bass, not boomy).

After that, all the problems are in you and don't forget, playing near the bridge will give your more clarity and so on...

[ljazz]

Okay, I've gone back and listened to your tracks again.....
I think it's difficult to say what is going on problem-wise, because there is no telling what the engineer did..... he could have sucked the life out of your tone. I've got a feeling some frequencies may have been cut that shouldn't have been. On both my P and my J, they shine in the mix with a slight boost at 100 and 1k, and a very slight cut at about 60 and 300. Other than that it's flat.

There is no lack of mid's in the chromes..... in fact, the mids give them kind of a "singing" quality to me. I would say at this point, strings may not be your problem.

For punch, I'm not a fan of the Avatar cabs..... too loose in the booty for me. You may want to look at 10's (I've not played the avatar 10's, so I can't comment on how tight they sound).

I think the biggest thing you can do is to investigate new pups. Perhaps I missed it above, but is the Jazz MIM? I'm a big fan of the SD Antiquities in my MIA Jazz...... I'm a bit biased, but my Jazz has the best sound of any I J I've ever played..... and that's a lot of 'em. For my P, I'm still using the MIA pup, but the chromes seem to make that pup shine..... I'm still thinking antiquity for that one though.

Ljazz

[walknbluez]

Originally Posted by ljazz

Okay, I've gone back and listened to your tracks again.....
I think it's difficult to say what is going on problem-wise, because there is no telling what the engineer did..... he could have sucked the life out of your tone. I've got a feeling some frequencies may have been cut that shouldn't have been. On both my P and my J, they shine in the mix with a slight boost at 100 and 1k, and a very slight cut at about 60 and 300. Other than that it's flat.

There is no lack of mid's in the chromes..... in fact, the mids give them kind of a "singing" quality to me. I would say at this point, strings may not be your problem.

For punch, I'm not a fan of the Avatar cabs..... too loose in the booty for me. You may want to look at 10's (I've not played the avatar 10's, so I can't comment on how tight they sound).

I think the biggest thing you can do is to investigate new pups. Perhaps I missed it above, but is the Jazz MIM? I'm a big fan of the SD Antiquities in my MIA Jazz...... I'm a bit biased, but my Jazz has the best sound of any I J I've ever played..... and that's a lot of 'em. For my P, I'm still using the MIA pup, but the chromes seem to make that pup shine..... I'm still thinking antiquity for that one though.

Ljazz

Yeah, I've had my eye out for a 410 for while, just not sure which brand yet.

But back to the original problem, I'm not so much concerned about this recording, I'm more concerned about live sound. I wasn't totally happy with the engineering on this recording anyway but I can't say I totally blame the engineer because it was done on the fly in a live band setting, without much separation, i.e. everything just mic'd.

Since I just got a USA Precision with roundwounds, I'm just debating on whether to go to flats. My original thinking was that I've already got a bass with flats on it so why not just keep the rounds on this one. Then playing it by itself I was like, Yeah, that's the sound I like. But then in the mix I don't know that I liked the rounds as much as I thought I would. So the more I think about it the more I think some chromes on the P may be what I'm looking for. Craig suggested the Labella 760's but I'd have to research those more because I'm not really familiar with the character of those.

[guroove]

If you are torn between flats and rounds, LaBellas are a great string to try. I bought a set of the light gauge strings for my Jazz bass, and they have a lot of the growl and upper mid brilliance of a round wound, and are extremely soft and easy to play. People say they are not good for slapping, but on my Jazz, they are the perfect flatwound for slapping.

I also have a set of the medium gauge on my P-bass. The thickness of the mediums is a little strange to get used to, but they are not what I would call high tension, or hard to play at all.

After trying both the light (.043 - .104) and the medium (.049 - .109), I realized that I should have gotten the standard gauge (.045 - .105) to start with. Often flatwounds run higher tensions than rounds of the same diameter, but LaBellas do not.

[ljazz]

I HATE Labellas on the new MIA P's. They just don't translate real well with the pup..... there is a distinct lack of "attack" that puzzles me. I love Labellas on my G&L SB1, but even on that bass, those singing mids are lacking..... but of course, gauge will have something to do with that. I'm not happy with TIJF's on the new P's either. But again, on my SB1, they are incredible. I was about 2 seconds away from throwing in a new pup.... but I decided to throw on a set of chromes..... and there it was! Just enough attack, and plenty of mids.

I still believe you'll maximize your versatility by throwing flats on the P, and rounds on the Jazz.