"witness point" questions

[sevenyearsdown]

disclaimer: I've already searched and read through pages about this topic - still have questions.

I didn't have a problem with dead E's until I switched to flats. I string through body, but have never tried to set the witness point. Just came across the topic here today. BTW - I use DR HI-beam flats....

Is it just as simple as pressing down real hard on the PUP side of the saddle/bridge?

Can it be done to an already strung bass and still be effective?

Does anyone have any experience +/- on this in relation to stringing through body vs. through bridge end?

go................

[sevenyearsdown]

really no one? not even a pm?

[KJung]

Not sure what you are really asking. From what I understand, the 'witness point' is just where the string contacts either the bridge or the nut.

Pressing down or whatever won't have any impact IMO. You might try another brand of strings... it's amazing how that can change things.

Regarding through the body or through the bridge, on A/Bing both my previous Lakland 55-94 and my current Celinder Update 5, I heard absolutely no difference at all between the two methods.

[CapnSev]

There shouldn't be any difference between through the body and through the bridge, the string is always going to be the same tension at pitch. The only way to change tension is to change the type/brand of string.

[sevenyearsdown]

Sorry I wasn't very clear in my original post. I read several posts here about dead E strings with flats right out of the box. I had a similar problem. Many of the replies in those posts suggested depressing the string over the witness point on the PUP side after stringing and tuning up. Supposedly it has an effect on brightness and intonation for some guys. My intonation is perfect, and only the E string ever gives my problems with brightness. I was just curious if anyone has experienced the same kind of issues, and if this simple procedure really helps at all. Sorry for the vague post....thought it was one of those things that popped up here all the time.

[7flat5]

Flatwound strings do not like sharp bends, as a general rule. Some flatwounds really do not like sharp bends, especially on the larger diameter strings. Since the major difference between through-body stringing and on-bridge is the bend required over the bridge, this may be a case where you need to not do that.

[sevenyearsdown]

Originally Posted by 7flat5

Flatwound strings do not like sharp bends, as a general rule. Some flatwounds really do not like sharp bends, especially on the larger diameter strings. Since the major difference between through-body stringing and on-bridge is the bend required over the bridge, this may be a case where you need to not do that.

I actually contacted DR and they said that stringing through body is not a problem. What about flats having to "settle in" before they all sound equal? I've heard that brought up too.

[7flat5]

Originally Posted by sevenyearsdown

I actually contacted DR and they said that stringing through body is not a problem. What about flats having to "settle in" before they all sound equal? I've heard that brought up too.

Well, if indeed the string isn't making good contact with the bridge where it needs to, it's not working whatever DR says is "not a problem."

The times I have had this problem with new E strings have been on a bass with round bridge contact points. The string takes kind of a lazy bend over the bridge, and you can see this if you look from the side at the contact point. When the string vibrated, it hit the bridge a little behind where it should have, and the sustain was deadened. Hard to describe, but I hope it makes sense. I did fix it by pushing down on the string on either side of the witness point, so that it bent the string over the bridge, and the contact with the bridge was "clean" at the point it came off of it, and could vibrate freely. No problems after that, so I know that was the problem.

If the problem is a dead-sounding string with no sustain, I don't see how "settling in" can improve that.

[62bass]

I thought witness point was where, in court, the prosecutor asks the witness "can you point out the person you saw running from the murder scene?" and the witness points to the defendant and says "it was him".

There sure is a lot of misinformation being passed on as gospel about flatwound strings. In my experience some inferior strings might tend to weaken at the point where they bend sharply like on a string through design and even roundwounds can do that. But, I've never found it to be a problem. I went for years on the same set of Thomastic flats on a string through and there was never a problem. I recently sold that bass and the strings are still on it, it's being played a lot and the new owner has no plans on changing them any time in the near future. It's one of the main reasons he likes that bass enough to buy it after playing it. He never asked me about the great flatwound breaking at the witness point epidemic, but maybe he was out of the loop.

Seriously, what about all the old string through early Fender basses that came standard with flatwounds? Nobody changed strings very often then. You never heard of strings breaking. I went over 10 years on my first set before I broke a string and it broke at the nut; but I played that bass a lot, like 4 to 5 hours a day 6 days a week. I was working all the time as a full time musician. And that's the only bass string I ever broke.

[7flat5]

Originally Posted by 62bass

There sure is a lot of misinformation being passed on as gospel about flatwound strings. In my experience some inferior strings might tend to weaken at the point where they bend sharply like on a string through design and even roundwounds can do that. But, I've never found it to be a problem. I went for years on the same set of Thomastic flats on a string through and there was never a problem. I recently sold that bass and the strings are still on it, it's being played a lot and the new owner has no plans on changing them any time in the near future. It's one of the main reasons he likes that bass enough to buy it after playing it. He never asked me about the great flatwound breaking at the witness point epidemic, but maybe he was out of the loop.

Seriously, what about all the old string through early Fender basses that came standard with flatwounds? Nobody changed strings very often then. You never heard of strings breaking. I went over 10 years on my first set before I broke a string and it broke at the nut; but I played that bass a lot, like 4 to 5 hours a day 6 days a week. I was working all the time as a full time musician. And that's the only bass string I ever broke.

You will have to excuse me for getting a little defensive, but when people say things like "misinformation being passed on as gospel" about something I wrote, it does raise red.

We are not talking about breaking strings here. We are talking about strings making good contact with bridges when trying to do so at sharp angles. Thomastics are extremely flexible as flatwounds go, and while I have never seen the DR flats, I suspect that they do not share the very thin core wire and nylon inner wrap the TIs have which make them very break-angle friendly.

I'm also not intimately familiar with the string path on the old through-body Fenders, but I suspect again that the break angles over the bridges were not severe, as they are on some modern through-body bridges.

What I do know is when I replaced the 15-year-old (original) flats on my '67, I had a very similar problem with a dead E string, and it was fixed in the manner I described. I have also had the experience of flats that are a little long winding around the tuner, especially the E, and this has weakened the string, not to breaking, but to cause the outer winding to loosen to the point where the string sounded sad.

I hope this is not "misinformation" in your book.

[sevenyearsdown]

thanks for the pointers everyone

[WayneS]

Originally Posted by sevenyearsdown

BTW - I use DR HI-beam flats....

Try Rotosound RS77 flats. They sound great!

[fenderphil]

Originally Posted by CapnSev

There shouldn't be any difference between through the body and through the bridge, the string is always going to be the same tension at pitch. The only way to change tension is to change the type/brand of string.

tension might be the same, but theres a tonal difference. big time.

[sevenyearsdown]

Originally Posted by WayneS

Try Rotosound RS77 flats. They sound great!

I a little gun shy to change brands. I can't even feel the windings on the DR's which makes them so easy to play. I bought a set of fender flats just to try and I found them to be almost unplayable when compared to the DR's. They were brighter, but almost felt like a well worn set of rounds.

How are the roto's? Smooth?

[62bass]

Originally Posted by 7flat5

You will have to excuse me for getting a little defensive, but when people say things like "misinformation being passed on as gospel" about something I wrote, it does raise red.

We are not talking about breaking strings here. We are talking about strings making good contact with bridges when trying to do so at sharp angles. Thomastics are extremely flexible as flatwounds go, and while I have never seen the DR flats, I suspect that they do not share the very thin core wire and nylon inner wrap the TIs have which make them very break-angle friendly.

I'm also not intimately familiar with the string path on the old through-body Fenders, but I suspect again that the break angles over the bridges were not severe, as they are on some modern through-body bridges.

What I do know is when I replaced the 15-year-old (original) flats on my '67, I had a very similar problem with a dead E string, and it was fixed in the manner I described. I have also had the experience of flats that are a little long winding around the tuner, especially the E, and this has weakened the string, not to breaking, but to cause the outer winding to loosen to the point where the string sounded sad.

I hope this is not "misinformation" in your book.

Sorry. I didn't mean to make you see red or even meant to target you in particular. After reading this post I can see what you mean. I haven't experienced much of that myself either with flats or rounds but if you have and know what to do to fix it, great. That's not misinformation in my book.

[king_biscuit]

The biggest problem with string through bridges is getting the strings on a strung to pitch without getting the strings twisted against themselves -- this is easy to do on non-string throughs. For that reason alone, I really do not like string through bridges.