Wrong way to install flatwounds? Broken core?

SaxBass · #1 07-21-2006, 12:19 AM

I wanted to try flatwounds on my G&L LB 100. Bought a set of La Bella Deep Talkin standard gauge. A friend and I installed them, and used the technique of pressing each string down over the bridge, to improve the "witness point". The strings sounded cool, but the E string was very different, dead-sounding. I called the company I bought the strings from; they said call La Bella. I talked to a guy at La Bella who told me I shouldn't have done that at the bridge. He said I probably broke the core and that's why it was sounding that way. He said also you shouldn't pull up on the strings to stretch them out when first tuning them. He said I should call the place I bought the strings and order a single E string (he didn't offer to send me a new string).

Now, I'm not very informed about strings, and especially flat wounds. Is there something special about installing flatwounds as compared with roundwounds? I've learned that trick about pressing the string down on the bridge from more than one person. Never been warned away from it. Has anyone else had this problem with flatwounds (a dead string) and was it due to 'improper installation'? Of course it occurred to me that I just got a dead string, and the guy at La Bella didn't want to take that responsibility. I just don't know. I know there's a lot of you out there using flats, who can set me straight on this. Would very much appreciate your input!

Mudfuzz · #2 07-21-2006, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxBass

I wanted to try flatwounds on my G&L LB 100. Bought a set of La Bella Deep Talkin standard gauge. A friend and I installed them, and used the technique of pressing each string down over the bridge, to improve the "witness point". The strings sounded cool, but the E string was very different, dead-sounding. I called the company I bought the strings from; they said call La Bella. I talked to a guy at La Bella who told me I shouldn't have done that at the bridge. He said I probably broke the core and that's why it was sounding that way. He said also you shouldn't pull up on the strings to stretch them out when first tuning them. He said I should call the place I bought the strings and order a single E string (he didn't offer to send me a new string).

Now, I'm not very informed about strings, and especially flat wounds. Is there something special about installing flatwounds as compared with roundwounds? I've learned that trick about pressing the string down on the bridge from more than one person.

I've never heard of doing this, and I don't like the idea of it for ANY type of string my self, but that's just me. But if you've never had a problem before, I'd try a new string first / hell, get two Es, push on one like you normally do and see if the same thing happens, and if it does replace the string again and stop pushing like that on flats

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxBass

Has anyone else had this problem with flatwounds (a dead string) and was it due to 'improper installation'? Of course it occurred to me that I just got a dead string, and the guy at La Bella didn't want to take that responsibility. I just don't know. I know there's a lot of you out there using flats, who can set me straight on this. Would very much appreciate your input!

It could be the string it could be the pushing on. I've always used flats and have never got a dead string in a new set, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. But no, there isn't special way to put flats on, I usually give a slight tug but that's all.

SaxBass · #3 07-21-2006, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Noguer

I've never heard of doing this, and I don't like the idea of it for ANY type of string my self, but that's just me. But if you've never had a problem before, I'd try a new string first / hell, get two Es, push on one like you normally do and see if the same thing happens, and if it does replace the string again and stop pushing like that on flats

It could be the string it could be the pushing on. I've always used flats and have never got a dead string in a new set, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. But no, there isn't special way to put flats on, I usually give a slight tug but that's all.

Yeah, I did order another E string, and I'll install it without the "pushing down" on it ritual. I'm not quite willing to experiment pressing down on another expensive string until I've heard from a few more people about this...

One of the places I got this idea was in The Bass Player Book edited by Karl Coryat. There's a chapter entitled "The Right Way to Install Strings", and one of the things they specifically show is pressing the string down over the saddle. There wasn't any caution about different types of strings or anything... I guess I'm just trying to clear this up so I don't waste more money on strings.

My main axe for 30+ years has been sax, and it's commonly known that a small percentage of the reeds you buy are truly wonderful. But strings should have a little more consistency, right? And I figure if there's any magic formula for handling flatwounds, this'd be the place to ask.

vindy500 · #4 07-21-2006, 06:03 PM

ive never heard of doing that

Der Bluten Kat · #5 07-21-2006, 06:11 PM

hmm.. i've broken strings but not cores.. anyone else?

Melvin7822 · #6 07-21-2006, 06:18 PM

There was an article in Bass Player a few years back that mentioned creating the witness point by that method. Furthermore, to break the core would be to break the string. If you broke the core then you would see the outerwrap unwind itself from the loss in tension. A string is like a house in the sense that without a proper foundation it cannot stand.

BurningSkies · #7 07-21-2006, 07:13 PM

Odd. But at the same time I have to echo others. I've never heard of pressing down on the string at the bridge to make a firmer witness point in about 20 years of playing bass.

AlembicBob · #8 07-21-2006, 08:58 PM

Pressing the string sounds like a real stupid idea to me. Most strings stretch a little bit, so that witness point could move a hair from when you first do the install. Now you've got a flat/dented spot within the speaking length. It's probably trivial, but I don't see the point, at least not until after some break-in time.

seanm · #9 07-21-2006, 09:28 PM

I've heard of pushing the string to get a better witness point, and have done it myself. But only on a string through body. And I have done it with flats, chromes to be exact.

I no longer have any string through body and don't bother. Flats are very stable once they settle in. I have gone months without needing to tune.

SaxBass · #10 07-22-2006, 12:35 AM

All of this is interesting. AlembicBob has an interesting point about the string stretching, possibly causing the "witness point" to move, and then what would be the point of doing it in the first place? Now I'm wondering where this idea came from, and is it more akin to an old wives' tale? Does anyone have any evidence that it makes a difference?

And Melvin7822 has a point that I did think about- if you break the core, wouldn't the overwind start to stretch and unravel?

What I'm taking from this so far is that 1) There's some question whether I really broke the core of my E string (La Bella rep explanation for the dead string), and 2) the concept of creating a better witness point isn't universally accepted.

Melvin7822 · #11 07-22-2006, 06:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SaxBass

All of this is interesting. AlembicBob has an interesting point about the string stretching, possibly causing the "witness point" to move, and then what would be the point of doing it in the first place? Now I'm wondering where this idea came from, and is it more akin to an old wives' tale? Does anyone have any evidence that it makes a difference?

And Melvin7822 has a point that I did think about- if you break the core, wouldn't the overwind start to stretch and unravel?

What I'm taking from this so far is that 1) There's some question whether I really broke the core of my E string (La Bella rep explanation for the dead string), and 2) the concept of creating a better witness point isn't universally accepted.

Honestly, the method of creating the witness point is trivial depending on who you talk to. As for string stretching, before I create a witness point, I hold the string down at the 12th fret and stretch it out and let it slap the last fret until I hear no more pitch change (that's when I assume it's been sufficiently stretched out). Then I create the witness point by said method. I've never witnessed the witness point move.

Does it make a difference? Who knows? It's just something I've been in the habit of doing. Let's also bear in mind that article came out in BassPlayer when I was still in high school (back in the late 90s). I'm sure there's some theory behind it supported by physics.

As for breaking the core, it happened to me and the outerwinding started to unravel. If you broke the core, you wouldn't be able to play the string period.

SaxBass · #12 07-22-2006, 08:56 AM

Thanks for all of your input. When my new E string arrives, I'll just put it on without any stretching or bending, and hope I don't have another dead string. I'll see what happens with this hands-off method. In general, though, I'm suspecting I didn't break anything, and the string was just dead. I think I may have had a little smoke blown at me by the La Bella rep. Wiser next time, eh?

The A, D, & G strings sound great on this bass, and if the new E string follows suit I'm gonna have some new fun with the new overall sound.