3/4 to 5/8

[Snakewood]

Hi Mr. Neher. I'm a 2nd year performance student in University and I play on an asian fully carved bass, and have been since I started playing bass. I'm riddled with the problem of being a small bassist, as I am 5'6" with very short arms and very very small hands. I've always found it extremely painful to play high acrobat melodic lines because I can't get over the slope on my bass. I also have trouble sustaining a firm hand position in half and first position due to my bass' string length, which is still a very modest 41". I recently encountered a 5/8 size bass that is truly wonderful in sound/projection and playability. In body size it's not that much smaller than my 3/4 but the scale is so much easier to play, it fits my hand size perfectly. It's 38.5" and I feel that all the pain in my back, arms, neck, EVERYWHERE has disappeared.

Now down to my question, my teacher who is quite a lot taller than myself thinks that the instrument may be a tad too small for me and that I might have trouble securing an orchestral job due to the size of the instrument. I won't be with the "big league" monster basses. I feel very comfortable with my decision to play on a smaller bass, everyone says it's so much louder and clearer than my previous bass and most importantly I can now play without any pain. Do you think it would be an issue getting into an orchestra with a 5/8 size bass? Also do you know any smaller orchestral bassists or bassists in orchestra's with smaller basses?

Thanks a ton

[WalterBush]

I've been hired by pit orchestras repeatedly, and they love my 1/2 size bass since I don't need a huge amount of space. Outside of that, or a community orchestra who'll take what they can get, I suspect your teacher may be right. I can't say for sure, though, since I'm flat-out not good enough to play in a "real" orchestra, and thus, haven't auditioned.

I'm 5'7, btw, and my next bass will be a 3/4 or 7/8, simply because I'm tired of hunting down 1/2 size strings and hardware when everything's made for 3/4 and up. I figure I can force my body to adapt, or play on a stool.

[PNeher]

It would be wonderful to say that American orchestras audition the player, not the bass, but in reality, because players use their own instruments in the orchestra - mostly, American orchestras do audition the instrument and the bass together. So, if there is some prejudice against small basses in the bass section that you are auditioning for, you are going to have difficulty. Even if a bass is loud, the depth of sound and its "room-filling" aspects are important to a professional orchestra. That said, in Europe I have found that many if not most orchestras have basses that the players are often required to play on. The orchestras have made considerable investment in basses and prefer that, for a homogeneous sound, you play on their instrument. In this case, they are auditioning the player more than the bass. So, in Europe (not all of Europe) you may fare better with a 5/8 bass than in the USA. But, truly what really lands a person a job in any ensemble is great playing. So if you play better, more freely, with less pain on a small bass, do that! If you were required to play a big bass and suffered, you would end your career in no time. So the trade-offs need to me assessed. I personally went for a small bass due to physical issues (also) and have been a much better player for it. I am happy with the ensemble playing I do, some of which has been in large orchestra with a small bass. A big bass is not for me no matter how deep and macho it sounds. My physical attributes work better with a smaller bass and the music that I play does too. So, good luck to you both. If you sound good, with accurate pitch, in rhythm, musical, and dynamic, it is hard to refuse a position to you simply due to the bass being small.
PN

[Snakewood]

Originally Posted by PNeher

It would be wonderful to say that American orchestras audition the player, not the bass, but in reality, because players use their own instruments in the orchestra - mostly, American orchestras do audition the instrument and the bass together. So, if there is some prejudice against small basses in the bass section that you are auditioning for, you are going to have difficulty. Even if a bass is loud, the depth of sound and its "room-filling" aspects are important to a professional orchestra. That said, in Europe I have found that many if not most orchestras have basses that the players are often required to play on. The orchestras have made considerable investment in basses and prefer that, for a homogeneous sound, you play on their instrument. In this case, they are auditioning the player more than the bass. So, in Europe (not all of Europe) you may fare better with a 5/8 bass than in the USA. But, truly what really lands a person a job in any ensemble is great playing. So if you play better, more freely, with less pain on a small bass, do that! If you were required to play a big bass and suffered, you would end your career in no time. So the trade-offs need to me assessed. I personally went for a small bass due to physical issues (also) and have been a much better player for it. I am happy with the ensemble playing I do, some of which has been in large orchestra with a small bass. A big bass is not for me no matter how deep and macho it sounds. My physical attributes work better with a smaller bass and the music that I play does too. So, good luck to you both. If you sound good, with accurate pitch, in rhythm, musical, and dynamic, it is hard to refuse a position to you simply due to the bass being small.
PN

I've been looking into the Laborie Quenoil basses, like what you have, but I'm not certain if they would be good for someone who is an orchestral player? Do you know of any makers that make 3/4 size orchestral basses that are slightly smaller in string length (39)?

Thanks

[vier-personen]

I want to comment on this topic, but extend it to the title "right size of instrument for the size of player".
I am 183cm (about 6inch ?) and I have an instrument with a scale of 102cm (about 40inch?). I don´t have much trouble with the scale length, but I think the body of the bass might be to small for me. I have troubles to balance the instrument, have tried playing sitting (but got backpain), used a clamp with a pin to balance the bass with the right foot (not so comfortable), now I am balancing the bass with my right foot against the rib, but I am not so relaxed when doing this. I have tried other basses with a bigger body, and I think I didn´t have so much trouble balancing them.
I think I might try a eggpin or laborie and see if this helps... I wonder how well german bow works with these enpins? I can´t find anyone with these endpins here...

[PNeher]

Yes, size is everything! (joke)
Uhm... for someone who is playing ANY size bass in pain, one should really examine the approach, overall. What is your stance? How are your forms (read my stuff on "Natural Forms at Rest")? How efficient are you using your forms? What OTHER factors in your life might be contributing to tension? Most basses at 3/4 size are "okay" for most people, but certainly there are hundreds of 3/4 size shapes. One must match the shape of one's bass to one's body. Not all shapes work for all bodies and it takes some time, trying numerous shapes, to find the one that fits well. An observant teacher should be able to "point" you to issues you may have not discovered yourself. Not ONE (I repeat: not ONE) of my students in 23 years of teaching at the U of A has had pain in their back or arms or hands that has lasted due to the way they play the bass. It is terribly important that if you decide on a certain bass, that you examine your technique to play THAT bass... and whether that technique is appropriate for your body (even as it ages!).
best of luck!
Patrick

[Snakewood]

I agree with what you're saying Mr. Neher. Let me give you a bit more information about my playing:

I'm 5'6", very small hands and very short arms. My teacher gets me to play the entire Petracchi book every day, which is what really hurts. I have to play at the end of the fingerboard for extremely long periods of time, and I can barely get my arm over the very very small sloped shoulder of this 5/8 size Panormo Bass. I have no pain at all playing orchestral work, but whenever I go high on the fingerboard (D harmonic range) my back, neck, arms, everything seizes up. I just find it so hard to get my arm over the hump of the bass. I find this to be a problem because I think I could play any size bass, even 7/8 if I was just playing repertoire/etudes in the orchestral range, but whenever I have to play just on the g-string, I will have to rotate the bass towards myself and it is just a very painful experience. Playing on one string very high for hours is just not working for me, but I don't know any other way to gain the technique to play solo repertoire. The Petracchi has really given me a great hand position, but I feel like I've neglected the really imported parts of the bass. I played on a huge 42" five string Pollman several months ago, and I was extremely comfortable playing it. The instrument just laid on me. Seeing as how I didn't need to go into these acrobatics it didn't hurt. I've experimented with standing, sitting, two feet down, two feet up, one down one up...EVERYTHING! I just can't find a compromise between a comfortable position for solo repertoire and orchestral.

My teacher who is very tall wants me to play very close to the bridge, once again...If I drop my arm I have to lower my entire body due to my short arm length.

I'm really lost..and in significant pain.

He suggests I try looking for a 3/4 to 7/8 size bass with a much "shorter" upper bout in height, therefore the bridge would be closer to my arm...and a much taller lower bout. I don't really know what he means by this. I've only heard of bout in terms of width not height. He believes a Gamba style bass would really suit me. Unfortunetly, Toronto doesn't have an abundance of instruments to try out, so I basically try out whatever I can in the rarity that it's available.

Thank You

[PNeher]

Originally Posted by Snakewood

I agree with what you're saying Mr. Neher. Let me give you a bit more information about my playing:

I'm 5'6", very small hands and very short arms. My teacher gets me to play the entire Petracchi book every day, which is what really hurts. I have to play at the end of the fingerboard for extremely long periods of time, and I can barely get my arm over the very very small sloped shoulder of this 5/8 size Panormo Bass. I have no pain at all playing orchestral work, but whenever I go high on the fingerboard (D harmonic range) my back, neck, arms, everything seizes up. I just find it so hard to get my arm over the hump of the bass. I find this to be a problem because I think I could play any size bass, even 7/8 if I was just playing repertoire/etudes in the orchestral range, but whenever I have to play just on the g-string, I will have to rotate the bass towards myself and it is just a very painful experience. Playing on one string very high for hours is just not working for me, but I don't know any other way to gain the technique to play solo repertoire. The Petracchi has really given me a great hand position, but I feel like I've neglected the really imported parts of the bass. I played on a huge 42" five string Pollman several months ago, and I was extremely comfortable playing it. The instrument just laid on me. Seeing as how I didn't need to go into these acrobatics it didn't hurt. I've experimented with standing, sitting, two feet down, two feet up, one down one up...EVERYTHING! I just can't find a compromise between a comfortable position for solo repertoire and orchestral.

My teacher who is very tall wants me to play very close to the bridge, once again...If I drop my arm I have to lower my entire body due to my short arm length.

I'm really lost..and in significant pain.

He suggests I try looking for a 3/4 to 7/8 size bass with a much "shorter" upper bout in height, therefore the bridge would be closer to my arm...and a much taller lower bout. I don't really know what he means by this. I've only heard of bout in terms of width not height. He believes a Gamba style bass would really suit me. Unfortunetly, Toronto doesn't have an abundance of instruments to try out, so I basically try out whatever I can in the rarity that it's available.

Thank You

Hi Snakewood!
You are discovering your body's reactions to overuse in ways that I think you can correct IF you really take a close look at ALL your body when in these upper-pitch positions. Where are you stressed, how is your weight distributed, are you crouching (bending knees or shoulders), are you using rounded forms? Those any many other questions I would ask if I saw you play. I believe you may need another teacher to observe you... perhaps one that does not teach/play the bass, but who is in strings. If you wish, I would be happy to observe a video of you and make comments. If that is something you would like to do, contact me via private thread.
I think, also, that taking a break from doing all this high thumb-position screaming might be beneficial. You may actually have a MENTAL aversion to playing in high registers (?) that is manifesting itself physically. Are you afraid? And DO NOT rotate the bass to the right for playing on high G string. Rotate to the left and let it settle on your shoulder. This will ease stress on the left hand. You did not mention above where you have pain. Carefully observe this and "feel" how the pain is being created. Be able to discribe where, what shape and texture the pain is. This awarenes may help reduce the pain.
Best to you!

[NotACello]

Snakewood,
playing through the entire Petracchi book every single day?? I do a few pages of it and need to stop. Is it really necessary to push yourself that hard when it hurts?
I know someone that is 5'2 and plays a large 7/8 bass. This person has some problems with getting around the bass, but no issue with pain (and has a fantastic teacher that can empathize with this person's problem and come up with healthy solutions that DO NOT include getting a LARGER bass!) It sounds like your teacher is giving you bad advice (sorry, flame away). Maybe it's time to play for different teachers?