French grip frustrations

[hdiddy]

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for taking us up and being such a valuable resource for TB users. I wanted to ask you if you had some tips on holding the french grip.

I started out with it but later switched to German grip simply because it was more comfortable as the large hand muscle between my thumb and palm tends to cramp alot. I guess this is typical of most beginners on french bow.

Recently I came into posession of a cheap glaeser french bow and started messing around with french grips again. Even with the glaeser, I get a much smoother and nicer sound than I do with the german, but can't avoid the cramps.

I do have a teacher but was wondering if you could offer any additional insight as to relieving that cramping. I wouldn't mind switching back despite how pragmatic german grips are to me, french bows just sound alot better and easier to get a nice sound. If I can fix that problem, I'd run out and buy a nice french bow in a heartbeat.

Thanks again.

[PNeher]

Originally Posted by hdiddy

Hi Patrick,

Thanks for taking us up and being such a valuable resource for TB users. I wanted to ask you if you had some tips on holding the french grip.

I started out with it but later switched to German grip simply because it was more comfortable as the large hand muscle between my thumb and palm tends to cramp alot. I guess this is typical of most beginners on french bow.

Recently I came into posession of a cheap glaeser french bow and started messing around with french grips again. Even with the glaeser, I get a much smoother and nicer sound than I do with the german, but can't avoid the cramps.

I do have a teacher but was wondering if you could offer any additional insight as to relieving that cramping. I wouldn't mind switching back despite how pragmatic german grips are to me, french bows just sound alot better and easier to get a nice sound. If I can fix that problem, I'd run out and buy a nice french bow in a heartbeat.

Thanks again.

Hi, and thanks for the question!
BEWARE the Glaesser (fiberglass) bow! (and BEWARE the rest of this thread as strong opinion
I don't care if it is in the German or French style, they are TOO HEAVY, TOO LONG, TOO CHEAP, TOO SCRATCHY! Yes you can make some sounds with it but the effort required to play those things is such that if you don't give yourself a cramp, you are likely TOO strong, TOO macho/a, or TOO dense to feel it is hurting you.
WOW! What a strong opinion! Haven't seen that kinda reaction from me on these forums yet! This is how strongly I FEEL about those type of fiberglass bows. Hey, some peoples' attitudes are "It's just a stick with hair on it..." but for me the bow is my voice and I would not like to stress all the muscles that operate my voice. To me, using this brand of fiberglass bow is like pressing hard on my throat and trying to sing!
Okay, with that said: go get a nicely balanced wood or garbon-fiber bow. There are many out there that are nice for the money (say $500 +). No they are not as cheap as the Glaesser but you will be MUCH happier. Partly the cramp you get is due to the weight and bad balance of this Glaesser.
But: Allow your hand to "hang" relaxed from your extended arm. Place the bow with your left hand up into the relaxed, hanging right hand. DON'T SQUEEZE! DON'T GRIP! Put your thumb in front of the frog on the stick at a slight angle, where the thumb's contact point with the stick is kinda on the right side of the thumb's fingernail area (but on the flesh). Then, since in order to do this, the hand's wrist will be at a slight angle toward the tip of the bow. The fingers are to relaxedly placed at an angle where the tips of fingers are pointing slightly toward the screw of the bow. Allow the wrist to pronate toward the tip of the bow, putting weight through a torquing action on the string at the tip.
The main thing here is: DON'T GRIP! The fingers of left hand are at an angle to the stick, the wrist is flexible and pronated, where you lead the stroke with the arm but the end of the arm is the wrist... so like a string is attached to the wrist and pulls your arm toward the bass, then away from the bass. WEIGHT is applied not PRESSURE. The weight of your arm is what's grabbing the string, not the pressure of muscles pushing on the string. The thumb contacts in front of the frog (not inside it), the fingers are relaxed over the stick, not straightened but rounded/relaxed, where the third or second finger touches the ferrel (the silver ring on the frog) and the pinkie is resting on the stick, hanging above the eyelet on the frog (or the center point if there is nothing on your frog).
Get your teacher to help with all this, observing "flow" and weight transfer. Watch Francois Rabbath videos!
Best to you and Happy New Year!
PN

[hdiddy]

I know that the Glaeser is a piece of junk, but it's what got me thinking about french bows again. I first started out with it French with my teacher, and I feel like I can get the smoothness out of the bow, especially with the last set of exercises that he gave me to improve my feel and smoothness. I know what you're talking about when you talking about starting the bow stroke with the arm and finishing with the wrist, while keeping everything supple. But I never thought about how much a bad bow can be causing the problem. My first inexpensive french bow was also somewhat tip heavy as far as I can tell.

Two more questions just for clarification:
1) In terms of the bow hold, should it feel like as if i'm just "cradling" the bow with my fingers/thumb when you refer to "NO GRIP, NO PRESSSURE"? Is that a better semantic description?

2) Part of my issue may have been not knowing what a good bow should be like. Should the weight be more balanced around the frog area, and should I get the lightest bow I can afford (without going to the opposite extreme I'm guessing)?

I'm starting to notice that the weight and uneveness of the Glaeser is causing me to do all kinds of whacky things after a while, even though I start with a decent bow-hold from what you describe. I guess I will have to plunk down the $$$ for a decent bow. Thankfully, Ifshin Violins is in my area so I'll have to go over there and try a bunch of bows on my bass.

Thanks.

[PNeher]

1). Yes, if you can hold the bow and still allow the fingers, the wrist, and the arm to move freely, almost as if you were not holding anything, that is the goal. "Cradle" is a nice word, which I use for German hold. I guess for French I don't have a great word, but certainly not "grip!" Maybe you have a good term? Anyway, yes, go try out as many bows, without regard to price, that you can. Then land on one that seems it is the best tool and yet allows you to grow with it as your technique improves. You might be surprised, if you are ignorate of the price during the playing/review process, how the price of a bow really has little to do with the playability, once in a "decent" price range... Granted, most are better than the Glaesser at any price! I suspect you are going to find bows in the $1500 - $5000 range to be feeling similar to you right now, but once you are an expert, the $5000 bow might be better at doing some strokes and the $1500 bow might feel better at others. A great all-'round bow might be a carbon-fibre (there are many models/brands now). My bow was made by Jean Grunberger, for me - a copy of a French Vignerone I think, but these models (shapes) are copied now in carbon and sold under various stamps including Grunberger, "Carbow" and such. Good Luck!
PN

[bassist1962]

Mr. Neher,

I have a French bow that I am currently relearning to use, as well as everything else I have to relearn. In high school I used a German bow, but the bass I have came with the French. Isn't it possible to use the grips vice versa on each bow? IE: using German grip on French bow, or French grip on German? What are the advantages/disadvantages to this?

[PNeher]

Originally Posted by bassist1962

Mr. Neher,

I have a French bow that I am currently relearning to use, as well as everything else I have to relearn. In high school I used a German bow, but the bass I have came with the French. Isn't it possible to use the grips vice versa on each bow? IE: using German grip on French bow, or French grip on German? What are the advantages/disadvantages to this?

Yes, one can "play" using any hold (not grip) on any bow... but the "standardized" holds for each, seperately, have been developed over the centuries as the most efficient,... I guess. Everyone is different so an overhand (French-like) hold for me is different than for others, but basically the same. Overhand for the French frog and underhand for the German frog. Since the sticks AND the frogs are different (in weight, balance and length) the holds are critical to obtaining professional execution of strokes. If you have the need for only one stoke, say long, legato type, then one hold might do well for you. But a pro really needs many strokes and a "General" hold that accomodates all techniques. Generally, an overhand hold on French works well if just slightly altered for individual hand shapes, and musical/technical strokes. So - I hold it slightly different for spiccato than for legato, but I am aware of why and how it helps the stroke. Some people say that a bass player's bow is determined before his/her birth, during conception.... but that's another, long story (and David Walter joke).
Seriously, I believe you should hold the bow relaxed and flexibly, with efficient weight transfer to the string. If you do it with a different hold, fine... but I think you will find that the overhand for French and the under for German work the most effectively.
Best to you!
PN

[Snakewood]

Mr Neher, what is your opinion on the Neopolitan Style of holding a French Bow? It's what I was taught to use. It's apparently very popular in Toronto and in Philadelphia. Thanks

[bassist1962]

Snakewood.

I did a search, but can't find anything. What is the Neopolitan Style of holding a French Bow?

[PNeher]

Originally Posted by Snakewood

Mr Neher, what is your opinion on the Neopolitan Style of holding a French Bow? It's what I was taught to use. It's apparently very popular in Toronto and in Philadelphia. Thanks

Well, you got me on this one!!!!
I have never heard of this name for a hold, but if they use it in Philadelphia maybe they are trying to be no longer a German Sixth but a Neopolitan! (bad joke)! okay, ask Hal Robinson (Principal of Philly) maybe it is his name for his hold... beats me!
IMO: Anything that is a grip is not as flexible as a hold... relaxed is the name of the game... maybe in Naples one is more relaxed?
Cheers!
PN

[Snakewood]

Originally Posted by PNeher

Well, you got me on this one!!!!
I have never heard of this name for a hold, but if they use it in Philadelphia maybe they are trying to be no longer a German Sixth but a Neopolitan! (bad joke)! okay, ask Hal Robinson (Principal of Philly) maybe it is his name for his hold... beats me!
IMO: Anything that is a grip is not as flexible as a hold... relaxed is the name of the game... maybe in Naples one is more relaxed?
Cheers!
PN

I took for granted this term was more well known. My apologies! The Neapolitan hold is used by Franco Petracchi and all of his students. It started in Italy and works its way here through Torello (Philadelphia). It involves placing your thumb inside the frog versus on the stick. Therefore all the fingers are further back on the stick if not curved over the frog.

[Pete G]

I'll be interested in this "Neopolitan" discussion too. That style of bow mount was recommended to me by Bryce Parys at Hammond-Ashley, but my teacher urged me to stay with a "traditional" French bow mount, arguing that the balance points of good French bows are designed with the traditional mount in mind.

Then Sue Lipkins told me that she uses the Neopolitan bow mount, and she suggested I try it with a bow she made!

I read years ago in an interview of Edgar Meyer that he uses a wide variety of different bow mounts, depending on what he's trying to accomplish in the music. But then he also said he uses a $10 bow he got at a garage sale...

[Caseygk1]

Just to add for all French Bow users, a bow condom makes for holding the bow in a relaxed way much easier. It also eliminates your thumb slipping through. Patrick might have mentioned it but I didn't notice. You can find bow condoms at Roberstson's violin shop.

[Sippy]

Originally Posted by Caseygk1

Just to add for all French Bow users, a bow condom makes for holding the bow in a relaxed way much easier. It also eliminates your thumb slipping through. Patrick might have mentioned it but I didn't notice. You can find bow condoms at Roberstson's violin shop.

100% agreed

[najcross]

I have been told by my teacher that I am holding the bow correctly but it seems that there is a large amount of pressure going into my tumb. I am currently using a pretty cheap eastman bazilwood bow that came with my bass, could this have any effect. Also Its an octagonal stick, would switching to round stick make a difference and its just the contact point of were my thumb is on the bow. I can loosesn up my grip but then i do not have as much control over my bow. Any thoughts?

[najcross]

Also, play somewhere around 3 to 4 hours a day and its just over use that could be be the culprate?

[PNeher]

Again, do NOT GRIP. Pain in the thumb muscle is usually (not always) a result of squeezing too much. Read the threads above, and remember, "cradle" the bow, like lightly holding a pencil on your finger tips. A bow rubber, on front of the frog and covering a bit of the wrap, is a good way to have lots of "connection" with the bow and allows your hand to relax, open, hold (not squeeze or grip). Check out my YouTube vids for a loud, relaxed, fluid way to hold the bow. Christian McBride also has one of the most fluid holds/strokes of any bass player. Another example of excellent fluidity is (of course) Francois Rabbath. Learn from observing and "visualize" yourself doing the hold you admire and "feel" will work for you.
There are, of course, many, many ways to hold the bow. What you need to do is feel the way that works best for you. Really get sensitive to what muscles are working and which are relaxing to move and hold the bow. And use as close to relaxed forms as possible, angles (of approach, arm-wrist-to-bow), and gravity to your advantage.
Ciao!
PN