Rabbath& Simandl

[jgbass]

Hi Patrick,

I have had the opportunity to study with teachers who are either more Simandl or Rabbath oriented, and occasionally at the same time. Recent teacher has such an anti stance towards Rabbath and claims Rabbath-trained bassists cannot play in tune, they are ruining their hands/arms and will not be playing for long, and that the intonation will always be a struggle. He substantiates this with examples of bassists, but no specific names, and insists on this straight hand/wrist position with absolutely no pivoting under any circumstance.

Is this the way it is in the bass world.. this either/or thing, or are there indeed bassists who comfortably draw what is best for them from either or both of these methods?

My intonation seems to be getting worse, not better, adapting this straight hand, absolutely no pivoting approach (even more difficult for me in jazz than classical, I play both). Rabbath's ideas resonate with me but apparently, according to this teacher, have the potential to ruin my wrists and hands I am wondering a few things. I have already decided I cannot study with this teacher anymore, BTW.

1. Is it generally either/or out there, or is this just a particular bias of this teacher? Wonder if this teacher, never really studying Rabbath, really know Rabbath's methods?

2. Is this Rabbath/Simandl war that seems to exist with this teacher possibly doing damage to my development as a bassist? I think my intonation is getting worse not better, and I feel like my left hand is in this no-pivot straightjacket when I adapt this way of playing.

3. I noticed in a previous thread, that goes back a few years, that you think it is important to begin with Simandl. Do you still find this true? I am asking this because, even though I am not a beginner, I seem to have almost skipped over some important basic concepts such as good intonation, good left hand technique, etc. and I am really beginning to think that I almost need to go back to square one with some of these concepts.

Thank you for any input. There is a lot of confusion and I am frankly tired of being the hard working student who is just not making much good progress. I have been playing for about 7 years, at least 4 with serious intent.

[PNeher]

Hi,
Such a nice long thread! You have brought up a lot of questions and I believe answers to the questions. I am gonna get hell for this but: You already know that, for you, trying lots of different ways to reach a goal is valuable. For many, one way works and therefore that person may believe that everyone should go in this direction. Like building a car or maintaining a religion, there are those that are willing to try new things/ways and there are those that aren't. There are those too that would like to, for some reason, have everyone think and go through life like them. I am of the type that tries new things, always, to see whether my life, my intonation, my dexterity, my understanding (etc.) is enhanced by new knowledge and experiences ... even if it is new knowledge of traditional practices. I have had seven wonderful teachers in my life (of bass) that were all incredibly opinionated and differed greatly in "method." All of them believed strongly that the way they approached the bass was "The Way." Now I have my way, which is a combination of all ways that I have learned. There, in my book, IS NO RIGHT WAY to do anything, just as there is NO WRONG WAY to do anything. So, as you will find, technique and musicality, and listening to music, all are personal. Your ability to play better is developed through personal reflection and critique. A teacher is a guide, to open your eyes to ways you may not have considered, or considered deeply enough. The Simandl, Rabbath, Proto, Walter, Streicher, Bille, Montanari, Mengoli, Bottesini, Lane, Badilla, Gloeckler, Karr, Green, Ellison, Meyer, Petrachi, Quarrinton, Drew, Robinson, Trembly, Turetzky, Olkievicz, Ozuko, etc. ways of playing the bass are all different, all wonderful, all valid, all expert in their way, ALL IN TUNE. Intonation is personal. YOU must figure out how to do it considering FORM and MOTION. Granted, like building a car, there are particular basics that cross all approaches, but no individual can say they use strictly the way of another. Noone plays the Simandl way except Franz Simandl ... and he's dead. Rabbath plays Rabbath and is the best in tune of any bassist I have ever heard. Edgar Meyer is a close second, trained by many teachers in a variety of methods. And Joel Quarrington is also, for me, one of the most consistently in tune. He tunes his bass in fifths!!
Good luck to you my friend. It is forums such as this that you will not find players/teachers who are "one method only" types. We are here to enlighten and inspire each other, and approach the bass innovatively. Gone are the days of bassists with only gladiator-status. You are now an artist!
PN

[jgbass]

Thank you Patrick! What a thoughtful post. It seems that your experiences of multiple teacher (you said 7) are similar to mine. And, a few of my teachers too were very much the My Way Is The Way teachers. I even had a teacher who stated that all my previous teachers were wrong! I took that one with a grain a salt.

With the beginning of the summer, and much more time to practice due to my personal circumstances, maybe it is time to get more into what you mention as spending those hours on personal reflection and critique and finding what works best for me and trying to distill the best of what I have learned into my approach. This might be a time of consolidation.

Thank you for your time and perspective. Hope to catch up with you at the ISB Convention or a future Arizona Bass Players Convention (been a while for both).

[mcintyre]

Hmm.. weird. I watched "Art Of The Bow" and certainly thought that Rabbath's intonation was not the best I've heard. But, i'm a high schooler, so i'll take your word for it.

[damonsmith]

I can't imagine studying the instrument seriously and not making yourself fully aware of both Simandl and Rabbath - at the VERY least!
All the methods have something to offer and none of them take so long to work out of that you cannot work through several in your lifetime.

[ekspain]

Dear bassplayer friends!

I studied with Francois (and continue to study with Francois) in Paris for a number of years, and though I live outside of France, I still go over there when possible. In addition to that I've studied with many very "traditional" Players, that are well known in the States.
Its true that no one plays perfectly in-tune all the time. Francois, for me, is one of the GREATEST players of all time, though doesn't always play perfectly in-tune. Who does??? (well maybe Edgar).... but I digress...many teachers are VERY close minded about things, but through the years, as a player, I've come to the conclusion that you have to learn from as many sources as possible. If you stay a Rabbath-head all your life, you're missing out on what a lot of the other folks are doing!
For example, I just started playing German bow in orchestra recently, and I can do things I couldn't do with French!
Not to mention, collapsing the fingers in 4th and beyond, positions. Lately I've been using an arched position with the fingers, and in some passages I play more in tune and faster....and with the collapsed finger other things are easier. So now I do both!
Learn from the GREAT players. Learn from the best conductors you work with. Everyone can be your teacher.
But just a quick remark about the left hand bit: Stiffness and straightness is not a normal state of the hand. I know people that play like that...they can play well, but
in my view it can be a bit out of tune. BUT try it, if it works for you great, if it doesn't
than try the other options....

Take care
EKSPAIN!

[ekspain]

in other words common sense should lead you to what is good or bad for you...

[dneubert]

To each their own. I didn't know there was a "war" between Simandl and Rabbath, maybe between Simandl and Nanny (they lived at the same time) but there certainly was real war between Germany and France some 60 years ago. Its the same "war" between French bow and German bow, sitting and standing, solo tuning and orchestral tuning. The only thing about these "wars" is that nobody ever wins. Its like trying to argue about tradition - everything is relative.

[PNeher]

Thank you, David, for those "how true" comments!
Controversy and conflict seem to be natural state of endeavor in humans. Bass players (though many believe are NOT human) are susceptible to these natural tendencies. Ach! If only humans could appreciate music for its OWN value and leave the execution (pardon the pun) to musicians who are simply self-centered, not trying to gain some sort of power by imposing their techniques or "greatness" on anyone!!!
~~ Sorry for the politics. In my career I have found that controversies and rigid ideas over bass playing: standing, sitting, over-hand, under-hand, high shoulders, low shoulders, Pirastro or Thomastik, et al., lead only to confusing people. Perhaps that is the point. We wouldn't want a bunch of star bassists out there would we! Fortunately, there are many of us that don't buy-in to this CR*P! The Meek Bassist shall inherit the Stage!
Ciao, all!
Patrick