virtuosity

[ekspain]

Dear Patrick

I know this is a difficult question. But I was wondering on your opinion.
Is it possible to achieve virtuosity in ones lifetime. Or does it belong to
to the few, whom for some reason, nature has granted special abilities.

Thanks!
Ekspain

[PNeher]

Originally Posted by ekspain

Dear Patrick

I know this is a difficult question. But I was wondering on your opinion.
Is it possible to achieve virtuosity in ones lifetime. Or does it belong to
to the few, whom for some reason, nature has granted special abilities.

Thanks!
Ekspain

Yes, this is a DIFFICULT question to answer (not to ask!)! But first, HAPPY HOLIDAYS!
Certainly each individual has specialized talents. Whether an individual realizes those talents, is dependent on myriad factors, of environment, training, and exposure. Whether a bassist or any other musician obtains "virtuosity" is also dependent on not only those factors just mentioned but also how one defines virtuosity. One can be virtuous at an endeavor without being good at it in the eyes and ears of others. SO, I guess, without sounding like a cop-out to answering your serious question, I would say that we all, all of us musicians, can be virtuosos in our minds, in our own view.... BUT, to be thought of as a "Virtuoso" by the general public or even those you hang with, is, again in my opinion, based on not ONLY how well you play, but how well you "sell" yourself... how well you know your audience and how well you play to their likes and tastes. So, if you want to be a virtuoso classical player, you must CONSISTENTLY fit the image of what your audience thinks is well executed and interpreted classical music performance. Same for if you want to be known as a virtuoso jazz or pop musician. The audience determines (and perhaps labels) your public title of "Virtuoso" or not.

What REALLY matters for ME, though - and for those I teach and work with, is that I perform well, to the expectations of myself and of those people I play for and with. I am a virtuoso, self-labeled as well as publicly labeled, but, so what! I can play really well, both technically and musically, and I have innovative interpretations. I am virtuous! But that does NOT please all the people that I play for. It is not accepted in many circles ... because I do NOT meet certain expectations that a certain sector of the audience has. In other words, you can be a virtuoso when you have accomplished what YOU believe to be the highest standards of performance and interpretation. You then must convince your audiences that you have met these standards, both of you and of them. Some people can do that at a very, very young age (Hillary Hahn, for example, or Yo Yo Ma). Some people acquire the title in their early adulthood (Issac Stern, Francois Rabbath, Edgar Meyer), some hold the title a long time, some only a short time. It really makes no difference to your art what the title is, as long as you believe in yourself, you are happy with what you are studying and accomplishing, and the feedback you get from your audiences is encouraging. Being a "Virtuoso" is almost a meaningless title. But virtuosity, like beauty, is deeper than what's seen only upon the surface.
Finally, Francois Rabbath claims that he can train anyone to be a virtuoso in two years. This may be true. He says that to be a virtuoso means that you can play anything you want to play, well and with ease. I believe also that you must also convince yourself AND your audience that you are at the desired level of execution and facility. If you play for young children who have not experienced a bass player, you are a virtuoso to them! So, again, like beauty, it is in the eye/ear of the beholder. Experience is both the performer's and the audience's judge.
Hope this helps.
Again, best of holidays to you!
PN

[ekspain]

Well. I've studied with francois for nearly 12 years, and I can't say I'm a virtuoso, but I feel close to understanding certain aspects. As time progresses I improve, but my feelings change day to day on the subject. I also studied with other "traditional" teachers and that has had much influence on me as well. But, and this is difficult to explain,
the image of what I want to be, to feel like- physically- when I'm playing, in other words, what I envision as relaxed and beautiful, is something elusive, that I have yet to understand...I feel like the answer is close, and yet far away.....do you know what I mean? Its some basic physical aspect, I believe- like breathing or posture... these are difficult for me to control... especially when I shift between orchestral and solo playing... I find that when I do shift, from one to the other, certain technical aspects need to be remembered again...

[ekspain]

its difficult to explain. For years I've been trying to grasp Francois bow arm, and also, as basic as it sounds- even just the position of the bass itself. When he plays, its as if the instrument is a part of him. To have that integration of the instrument and the human being is what I'm striving for. He will say something like, "you have to adapt the instrument to your body, not the body to the instrument" which I understand, but...why can't I get it?

anyway: Thanks Patrick for you answer....

[Downright_Low]

Some thoughts, if I may be honest...

You seem to be struggling to control yourself. Keep trying, but realize what you're doing. If you are trying to learn something, practice the wrong way will not achieve what practicing the right will achieve - obviously. Sent aside a few minutes and address it. See the problem. Take time. Give yourself a few minutes separate from all your other assignments to just try and feel something good. If you're always bothered by many things, you won't be as free as you could be to put more concentration into a narrower direction or issue or problem... Try to take time enough to explore freely certain things that bother, to pursue freely, which means you are organizing your practice time somewhat.

Just an impression; I've felt these things before, how to feel, to hold the bow, the bass, to incorporate the bass with you and you with it, to somehow sing naturally, or just how to play without pain. It's hard to address a mysterious problem, so find out. Maybe by then you'll solve it and won't need to tell us what it is, I hope.... although it might be useful too... Happy Winter

[PNeher]

Originally Posted by ekspain

its difficult to explain. For years I've been trying to grasp Francois bow arm, and also, as basic as it sounds- even just the position of the bass itself. When he plays, its as if the instrument is a part of him. To have that integration of the instrument and the human being is what I'm striving for. He will say something like, "you have to adapt the instrument to your body, not the body to the instrument" which I understand, but...why can't I get it?

anyway: Thanks Patrick for you answer....

It sounds as if you ARE a virtuoso, in that your expectations are unobtainable. What are the opinions of your audiences? Perhaps what you want to achieve IS special to, and unique to, a certain individual. We have individual talents, and individual physiques. You cannot demand that your physique "be" like FR (or me or anyone else), and therefore there will be certain talents that you possess that noone else possesses. Since I note that you have studied with some of the best teachers out there, you might want to consider also that what you have been able to "get" with one, you could not have "gotten" with another... so it is THAT relationship that allowed you to excel in some particular way. You found yourself via the help of another. The same technique may not be understood as well with another teacher. So, how you are evaluated and how you are evaluating are really, really important to obtaining your goals. In other words, how a teacher communicates to you is as important as how you grasp things from the teacher. If you have to "figure out" what the teacher is communicating, that may take up valuable learning time. On the other hand, the same technique taught in myriad ways is how teachers connect with students. So, your level of desire, which sounds grand, needs to ALSO be considered. If you are expecting beyond your current abilities, that causes frustration... but without frustration one usually does not excel. Such is the life of an artist: expecting, frustration, elation, new expectations, new frustrations, new accomplishments. Age and experience often provide the answers.
to continue more personally, I'd be happy to consult with you via PM.
Again, best of the Holidays to you!
PN
PS: Note that these and other heady subjects are part of the seminars I offer in the summer: www.contrabassfellowship.org

[SLivinghouse]

I'm not in danger of being called virtuoso, so thankfully I don't need to worry if I've reached that status. It seems like you are wondering if you received what often gets called a "natural gift", "God given talent", or "secret sauce" and thus may never achieve "virtuoso" status. Go see the movie "Bird." It is the biography of the jazz saxophonist Charlie Parker - the great virtuoso of his genre. At one point early in his career a drummer unscrews a cymbal from the stand and throws it at Charlie Parker to humiliate him and knock him off stage! It was shocking yet inspiring, kind of like seeing a young Gary Karr with an oboe flying toward his head while he's attempting to play Mahler. They all had their pre-virtuoso period.

Also, I noticed that your tag line says: "you must throw your ego by the window... (Francois Rabbath)." So it then seems ironic to me you are worrying about whether you have achieved a status such as "virtuoso." Maybe you should re-read your teacher advice and focus your energy on playing (which I'm sure is fantastic) and drop the head games of what to label youself.

[ekspain]

Thanks Patrick! I suppose that frustration is the natural beginning point of progress. To realize that something is not right and fix it. I've never been one to try and hide from the truth. At least in music. About the physique thing too, I there is also alot of truth in that as well.
To Slivinghouse...
I guess when I say virtuoso, I'm not referring necessarily to what others may consider good, or etc...merely the absence of obstacles in ones playing. Not ego trip.
On the contrary I think the ego is probably the greatest obstacle in ones path to progress.

Thanks again all! Happy holidays!