Metronome on 2 and 4: fast tempos?

[Gyoon]

I'm having a little trouble managing to walk lines at faster tempos (260 and above) with the click on 2 and 4. 1 and 3 is much easier to grasp at that speed. Is it alright, in your opinion, to play on 1 and 3, or to stick with 2 and 4 regardless?

Glenn

btw: electric player here. Not talented enough to pick up the big boy

[Lynn Seaton]

I think 1 & 3 is just fine. I also like it there for faster tempos. I also tap my foot on 1 & 3 as did many great time players like Herb Ellis. He explained to me that tapping on 1 & 3 is grounded in the bass drum and the high hat is 2 & 4.

[robthorsen]

I agree having 1 and 3 as the pulse (or tapping if need be) is the way to go but also think that having the ability to audibly recognize the 2 and 4 is very beneficial, especially at fast tempos. When a tune is really flying (340-400bpm) the high hat on 2 and 4 is the one consistent pulse that we as bass players really need to be able to cue into. Obviously some great drummers, Tony Williams etc don't do the 2 and 4 thing all the time so this is in the traditional swing sense.

[bblumenthal]

Originally Posted by Lynn Seaton

I think 1 & 3 is just fine. I also like it there for faster tempos. I also tap my foot on 1 & 3 as did many great time players like Herb Ellis. He explained to me that tapping on 1 & 3 is grounded in the bass drum and the high hat is 2 & 4.

As always, Lynn, good advice. Another practice technique I use for fast tempi is dividing the tempo by 4. i.e., if the tempo you want to practice is quarter note = 280, then set the metronome on 70, and hear the click as being on beat 4. You know... "1, 2, 3, CLICK, 1, 2, 3, CLICK"... it take a little getting used to, but I found that by having the metronome play less frequently it becomes more of a "time check" than a time keeper; it makes ME more responsible for keeping time rather than it keeping time for me. Additionally, with it set on beat 4, it's reminiscent of the snare rim-click often used in up tunes.. you know, when the drummer plays two eighth notes on the tom on "2 and," then a click on 4 on the snare. I don't know.. something like that. The metronome on JUST 4 for fast tunes just feels more right than that constant 2,4,2,4,2,4,2,4 frantic clicking away. If you're having trouble keeping time for more than a few measures, then Lynn's method is dead on.. put it on 1,3 and hold tempo till it's pretty effortless.

O' course, I'm a piano player, primarily... <grin>.. what the heck do I know!

Nice to see your writing here, Lynn. I don't expect you to remember me.. we did a brief 4 day tour years ago w/ the "International Art of Jazz." My friend Tom Melito was the drummer and I filled in on piano at the last minute. Those four days spent playing with you were one of the musical highlights of my life.. thanks for the inspiration!

Barry Blumenthal

[Lynn Seaton]

Barry,
Yes, I remember touring with that group with you and others. It was always fun to bring jazz to the remote corners of upstate NY with a multi-cultural band and witness the positive reactions to the concerts and workshops.
There are many fun games one can play with the metronome including the one you suggest with the click on 4. Dave Douglas gave a clinic where he demonstrated playing with the click on various beats including the second 1/8 note of the beat! I agree that the metronome becomes more of a “time check” than keeper when one gets used to playing with it. The analogy that I use is this: A metronome is like the lines on the side of the road. When we first learned to drive, it took a lot of concentration to keep the car between the lines. As we became more experienced drivers, the lines help with a reminder to keep things on track. The metronome clicks serve the same purpose.

[Phil Rowan]

Originally Posted by Lynn Seaton

Dave Douglas gave a clinic where he demonstrated playing with the click on various beats including the second 1/8 note of the beat!

I learned this from Michael Kanan. I sometimes practice it with a good pianist friend of mine, and we'll play tunes with the click on the "and" of 1 and 3, then on the "and" of 2 and 4, and then only on the "and" of 1 (or only of 2, 3, or 4). It's amazing what this does to your sense of time, and your "hook up" with whoever you're playing with. The other thing is hearing that "and" straight in your head, but still swinging what you play. This exercise can be mighty frustrating at first, because the second you play a note on the click.. yep, you've turned the beat around.

[patman01]

Recently bought a JA playalong with Joey DeFrancesco, and a few of the tempos are blistering...I can walk them, but do you have any advice on soloing at those kinds of tempos...or do I just need to memorize enough "automatic" licks to be able to get through the tune without getting hurt?

[Lynn Seaton]

Yes, there are some nice tempos on that CD. If you can play things you know at fast tempos, you have a better chance of improvising at any tempo.
When learning tunes at any tempo here is an excercise to try. What I do (and have my students do) is analyze a tune for the related scales and arpeggios for each chord including extensions and alterations. Practice them in their entirety up and down with a metronome gradually increasing the tempo. I call that playing "out of context". Also play the scales then arpeggios in harmonic rhythm over the changes in tempo. I call that playing the scales and arps. "in context". You will need to plan how far up and down the scale or arp. that will fit on each chord as the changes go by. Eventually the goal is to be able to do this at the tempo the tune is played.
Study of "automatic" licks and patterns does help some people. Be careful not to sound too mechanical. Transcribing solos of the master players on many instruments will give one the jazz language necessary to sound "real". Scales and arpeggios are a part of music, but as the only element in a solo, they sound too academic. The flow and direction of a phrase to create an improvised melody is the most important element.
Don't forget chromaticism when you solo. Make sure you can play a chromatic scale from the bottom of the instrument to the top at any tempo and crossing strings anytime.

[patman01]

Do you ever use books such as 1001 jazz phrases or licks (don't remember the author)---?

I have used this for several years, and I find the phrases "morph" over time until they don't sound so mechanical or memorized---like a phrase in the book for "All the Things You Are" may pop out when playing "Fly Me To The Moon" etc...? or any other tune with similar changes...

On the Joey De Francesco CD, though--even stuff I thought was under my fingers I still choke on (at the fast tempo).

Thanks for your advice, re: practicing--I will give it a try.

One other question---at fast tempos, do you ever "simplify" the changes i.e. on "Softly as in a Morning Sunrise", do you ever break it down to I / V when soloing rather than trying to execute the entire minor I / II V??

[Ed Fuqua]

Back in the dim and distant past of TB, there was a discussion of where to put the nome and lermgalieu said something pretty funny when he talked about putting the nome on 1 & 3, "When was the last time you heard some poor lost bastard say "hey, where's 2?'

[Lynn Seaton]

The comment about "hey where's 2?" is really funny and makes a good point.
Regarding patman01 -
I have not used the book you mentioned. I own a couple of pattern books, but have not studied them extensively. What I did was learn some transcribed licks from solos and played them in a few other keys. It is common to simplify changes on tunes. I call making just a V7 chord out of a ii-7 V7 "condensing the changes" and conversely adding a ii-7 to a V7 "expanding the changes". It is also common to find chord subs for existing changes like a tritone sub for a dominant chord. In Softly as in a Morning Sunrise that would mean soloing off of Db7 where there is a G7 resolving to the C-7.

[patman01]

Thank you-that gives me some ideas on how to proceed...

[rokkitt]

good stuff


hahahahhahahah

where is the 2.....!


big al

[patman01]

After practicing this morning---I guess the tri-tone D flat for the G7 works because it is the same altered scale????

[Lynn Seaton]

G7 and Db7 share a tritone interval that reverses function. The 3rd (B) and dominant 7 (F) of G7 become the dominant 7 Cb(B) and 3rd (F) of Db7. The V7 of any minor key is usually altered to V7(b9). This means one could play the superlocrian scale (also called 7th mode of melodic minor, diminished whole tone, and altered scale) on the G7. Starting the the same scale, same notes on Db would be the Lydian Dominant scale for Db7.

[Largedon]

Originally Posted by Phil Rowan

I learned this from Michael Kanan. I sometimes practice it with a good pianist friend of mine, and we'll play tunes with the click on the "and" of 1 and 3, then on the "and" of 2 and 4, and then only on the "and" of 1 (or only of 2, 3, or 4). It's amazing what this does to your sense of time, and your "hook up" with whoever you're playing with. The other thing is hearing that "and" straight in your head, but still swinging what you play. This exercise can be mighty frustrating at first, because the second you play a note on the click.. yep, you've turned the beat around.

Yeah, this is an awesome time building technique. I got it from a Will Calhoun article. I use this for just running exercises, whether they be scales, apreggios, etc. Really locks you in.