Tuning with harmonics

Big Bass Daddy · #1 07-15-2007, 12:20 PM

Hello,

A couple of years ago I was in a workshop at Hammond Ashley here in the Seattle area. I am sorry to say that I cannot recall the bassist's name (he was kind of "avant gard" style jazz from France).
It was a fun class. He stated that he was not a fan of electronic tuners and preferred the bow and the harmonics.

My question is this; I am able to tune in such a fashion, but need a starting note. I have read about using a tuning fork and am wondering if the A is where to begin.

I would appreciate any elaboration on how best to tune (without benefit of a tuner or keyboard).

Thx!

Lynn Seaton · #2 07-15-2007, 01:34 PM

Hi,
Tuning with an A tuning fork works quite well. So does tuning to a piano or other instrument or getting one string in tune with the tuner. I tune first with the A harmonic on the D string ( on electric at the "7 th fret"). I then tune the other strings with harmonics : D harmonic on the g string (7 th fret) to the D harmonic on the D string ( 5 th fret) and so on. Check for any waves that wobble in the sound. When it is completly in tune there will be no wave. The closer they are the slower the wave. If I am tuning to a chordal instrument, I like them to play an A sus chord and I tune my harmonics to that. That way if the piano is slightly out of tune, I can get tuned in balance. Tuning by ear helps one to hear and think about pitch all the time as opposed to relying in the visual of a tuner for every string.

Big Bass Daddy · #3 07-15-2007, 01:52 PM

Thank you so much! I guess it is time to go buy a tuning fork!

fingers · #4 07-22-2007, 10:33 PM

I have seen several threads that talk about tuning forks and I use one myself. I have a friend that is a piano tuner and he is adamant about making sure the fork is at room temperature. At the factory they are calibrated at 70 degrees according to him. Is this a big deal or is my buddy being a... well... piano tuner?

hdiddy · #5 08-14-2007, 03:47 PM

I'm a tuning fork user myself. It's the quickest and cheapest solution. Electronic tuners get too iffy for basses.

One interesting thing tho: I attended a Ron Carter workshop a few months ago. He fervently discouraged using harmonics to tune the instrument and impressed upon us to learn to tune the instrument using the open strings and hearing the 4ths. I've been able to get in the ballpark using open notes but still use harmonics to doublecheck. Food for thought.

fingers · #6 08-14-2007, 04:14 PM

I'd love to hear some thoughts on this. With all the tuning methods people discuss we are really talking about a few cents difference. I've tuned all different ways and I just end up using my ears to tweak the tuning over the course of the set based on what I hear around me.

Eli_Upright12 · #7 08-14-2007, 05:00 PM

Its weird I tune with harmonics after getting an A from either a Metronome drone, tuner or piano, but sometimes I find I'm more accurate using forths on the open strings especially the A and E strings.

Phil Rowan · #8 10-09-2007, 03:45 PM

I always use a fork, unless I'm eating soup. But seriously, I've been using a tuning fork for years now, and I find that it's much easier to use that than the A on a metronome, or something similar. A note from a piano is also very helpful, as long as the piano is well enough in tune.

One way to tune using harmonics and open strings is to tune in 5ths, by using double stops. Play the octave harmonic on the A string, and in the same bow play the open D string. It's another tool for ear training, and it's something I do to get the strings close to being in tune. At the same time, it's good practice for bowing double stops (does one string get more pressure than the other, or do you try to have them equal?). I usually do this in addition to tuning in harmonics the normal way, or in 4ths.

damonsmith · #9 10-10-2007, 12:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Rowan

A note from a piano is also very helpful, as long as the piano is well enough in tune.

- I use a tuner and then the Harmonics to check it. I never tune to pianos, they are so rarely in tune. My bass is happiest with a nice 440 A.

**Damon Rondeau** · #10 10-10-2007, 01:02 PM

My guitar colleague likes to tune to about A=445. I've been playing with the guy for five years and I've never been able to figure out why he likes that, but the does. So I just get a reference from him -- usually a G -- and tune from there with harmonics.

If I recall right, Ray Brown used to like to have pianos tuned to about A=438. Again, can't remember why.

milomo · #11 10-10-2007, 01:15 PM

This is Ron from the foreword (which he calls the fiveword...?!?!) of Chuck Traeger's book -
"...I have to tell Chuck that I still think the bass sounds better at A-438!"

fingers · #12 10-11-2007, 04:49 PM

If there is a real piano on the gig not compensating for it and using an electric tuner instead seems dangerous to me. I often use a tuner in addition to a tuning fork if there is an ep or guitar or neither but if there is a real piano on the gig I at least see how close it is and try to work it into the tuning maddess.

Often I will have the piano player play some sort of A chord with a rootless voicing. This gives me a good idea of where the A is. Then I go from there.

Carl Johnson · #13 10-12-2007, 03:05 PM

I've been using a electric tuner lately. Seem to make setup quicker and there's no guess work involved. Course I've been playing a lot with guitar players recently and they all use em.

bejoyous · #14 10-21-2007, 07:26 PM

Pick up a telephone and it sounds an "F" and an "A" with the "A" being the stronger of the two. Plus, it's A440.

Also, this site is useful:

www.metronomeonline.com/

boylebass · #15 11-21-2007, 09:11 AM

Tuning with a tuning fork is a beautiful thing. However, it requires a little more time and a quiet space. A jazz club at 9PM is a perfect time to use a tuner.

Bruce Lindfield · #16 11-21-2007, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boylebass

Tuning with a tuning fork is a beautiful thing. However, it requires a little more time and a quiet space. A jazz club at 9PM is a perfect time to use a tuner.

I think this is a good point - in a similar vein, a lot of non-bass players ( mostly musicians) say to me that they can't really hear the pitch of Double Bass and just feel it as a low thud ...and yet we spend so much time and effort tuning the things!

deaf pea · #17 11-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn Seaton

...Check for any waves that wobble in the sound. When it is completly in tune there will be no wave. The closer they are the slower the wave.

This is a commonly-held belief . . . but it's NOT true!
The problem is that the harmonic at the 7th "fret" is a couple cents SHARP of the correct, equal-tempered note . . . that method DOES get you "close", but NOT, IMO, close enough . . .

And Ron Carter has got the right idea, but tuning that way (getting the 4ths "perfect") doesn't result in open strings that are in tune with equal-temperment, either (IIRC it is in tune with "just temperment")

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn Seaton

...If I am tuning to a chordal instrument, I like them to play an A sus chord and I tune my harmonics to that. That way if the piano is slightly out of tune, I can get tuned in balance...

VERY, VERY GOOD!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn Seaton

...Tuning by ear helps one to hear and think about pitch all the time as opposed to relying in the visual of a tuner for every string.

Also very good . . .

Bruce Lindfield · #18 11-21-2007, 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by deaf pea

This is a commonly-held belief . . . but it's NOT true!
The problem is that the harmonic at the 7th "fret" is quite a few cents FLAT of the correct, equal-tempered note :

Since when did we have frets!!??

**Damon Rondeau** · #19 11-21-2007, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Since when did we have frets!!??

... and, therefore, since when did a bassist's tempered tuning come from anywhere but his brain and hands?

deaf pea · #20 11-21-2007, 04:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Since when did we have frets!!??

Hey, I was just continuing in the same style as Lynn Seaton, the host of this particular forum . . .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lynn Seaton

...I tune first with the A harmonic on the D string ( on electric at the "7 th fret"). I then tune the other strings with harmonics : D harmonic on the g string (7 th fret) to the D harmonic on the D string ( 5 th fret) and so on...

Bruce, would you have liked it better if I had said "the harmonic at the 7th "fret" position"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

... and, therefore, since when did a bassist's tempered tuning come from anywhere but his brain and hands?

When he's playing an open string!!

And, depending on which string you start with (the "A" double octave harmonic at the 5th "fret" position of the "A" string, which IS in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note; the "A" octave and a perfect fifth harmonic at the 7th "fret" position of the "D" string - which, as I said, is NOT in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note; a "G" double octave harmonic at the 5th "fret" position of the "G" string, which IS in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note - or with WHATEVER harmonic - in tune or not - that you want to use), the other OPEN STRINGS will NOT be in tune with the equal-tempered chromatic scale by some small amounts . . .

Physics . . .

And that's true using Lynn's method of tuning OR Ron Carter's!