Tuning with harmonics

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well - I can see and agree with you that frets on BG are slightly wrong - but if you don't have frets and you are using your brain/ear/hands (as Damon says) how can it be wrong!!

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

... if you don't have frets and you are using your brain/ear/hands (as Damon says) how can it be wrong!!

the OPEN STRINGS . . .

If you use the "A" double octave harmonic of the "A" string (which IS in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note) as your starting point, the other OPEN STRINGS will be out of tune.
Using Lynn Seaton's method of comparing "similar" harmonics, "Check(ing) for any waves that wobble in the sound", will result in the OPEN "E" and "D" strings to be slightly flat (1.96 cents flat) and the "G" string to be more flat (3.92 cents flat).
Using Ron Carter's method of tuning (with perfect 4ths) results in the OPEN "E" and "D" strings to be slightly sharp (1.96 cents sharp) and the "G" string to be more sharp (3.92 cents sharp) . . . but that IS close to "being in tune" . . .



BTW, If you use the "A" octave and a perfect fifth harmonic of the "D" string as your starting point, NONE of the OPEN strings will be in tune!

[Damon Rondeau]

The OPEN STRINGS are a trivial matter. You play in tune with the instruments you're playing with. Is the un-temperedness of your open string really bumming you out as you're playing? Don't play the open string.

[jsbarber]

Originally Posted by milomo

This is Ron from the foreword (which he calls the fiveword...?!?!) of Chuck Traeger's book -
"...I have to tell Chuck that I still think the bass sounds better at A-438!"

Maybe he calls it a fiveword because it precedes Chapter 1 - chordal analogy.

[PocketGroove82]

I find it amusing that a guy named Deaf Pea knows so damn much about the physics of the string and the overtone series. HA!

[Nils Ö]

Originally Posted by deaf pea

the OPEN STRINGS . . .

If you use the "A" double octave harmonic of the "A" string (which IS in tune with the "correct" equal-tempered note) as your starting point, the other OPEN STRINGS will be out of tune.
Using Lynn Seaton's method of comparing "similar" harmonics, "Check(ing) for any waves that wobble in the sound", will result in the OPEN "E" and "D" strings to be slightly flat (1.96 cents flat) and the "G" string to be more flat (3.92 cents flat).
Using Ron Carter's method of tuning (with perfect 4ths) results in the OPEN "E" and "D" strings to be slightly sharp (1.96 cents sharp) and the "G" string to be more sharp (3.92 cents sharp) . . . but that IS close to "being in tune" . . .

BTW, If you use the "A" octave and a perfect fifth harmonic of the "D" string as your starting point, NONE of the OPEN strings will be in tune!

Hm, this assumes tempered pitches are always "correct" or closest to what is "in tune" - which is definitely not correct :-)

Try this with a newly tuned grand piano (or perhaps a synthesizer/etc):

1) tune the D string to the piano
2) tune the A string from the D-string using harmonics (you will probably have to re-tune the D string and repeat).
3) Play "D" below middle C at the piano and 3:rd harmonic (double octave) of the A string - this will sound a perfect fifth. (and not a "tempered" perfect fifth which would be the result if you played A at the piano).
4) Play the 4:th harmonic of your D string - an F#. Sounds perfectly right, no?
5) Compare the harmonic to the F# above middle C at the piano. You will find that the harmonic is considerably lower than the F# of the piano. So which is "correct"? (Both, probably).

The same could hold, perhaps to a lesser degree, for open strings. Fortunately we don't have to play open strings if we don't want to (except from the open E).

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by PocketGroove82

I find it amusing that a guy named Deaf Pea knows so damn much about the physics of the string and the overtone series. HA!

Yeah, me too!

BTW, I'm NOT making this up . . .
the info in my profile is also 100% verifiable fact . . . check it out, you might be surprized . . .

Originally Posted by Nils Ö

Hm, this assumes tempered pitches are always "correct" or closest to what is "in tune" - which is definitely not correct :-)

Try this with a newly tuned grand piano (or perhaps a synthesizer/etc):

1) tune the D string to the piano
2) tune the A string from the D-string using harmonics (you will probably have to re-tune the D string and repeat).
3) Play "D" below middle C at the piano and 3:rd harmonic (double octave) of the A string - this will sound a perfect fifth. (and not a "tempered" perfect fifth which would be the result if you played A at the piano).
4) Play the 4:th harmonic of your D string - an F#. Sounds perfectly right, no?
5) Compare the harmonic to the F# above middle C at the piano. You will find that the harmonic is considerably lower than the F# of the piano. So which is "correct"? (Both, probably).

The same could hold, perhaps to a lesser degree, for open strings. Fortunately we don't have to play open strings if we don't want to (except from the open E).

This is EXACTLY my point . . . the "higher" F# IS the "correct" pitch . . . that harmonic F# on the D string is NOT in tune with the equal-tempered scale.

For a couple of hundred years now, we (musicians here in the western world) have agreed to use the equal-tempered scale . . .

[tpa]

The frequency offset between the 5th freat harmonic on the E-string and the 7th fret harmonic on the A-string on a bass tuned after equally tempered metods (which at least covers most correctly intonated fretted basses) is ~0.19Hz. This will be audible as the frequency of the tremulo/percussion effect of the superimposed tones.

[Nils Ö]

Originally Posted by deaf pea

For a couple of hundred years now, we (musicians here in the western world) have agreed to use the equal-tempered scale . . .

With all respect I think this is a rather common misconception. In any choir, string quartet, big band, etc. there is intonation and small adjustments going on. For instance, minor thirds are sung/played slightly sharp (compared to their equal-tempered counterpart), minor sevenths slightly flat, leading tones slightly sharp, etc.

[uprightben]

Well then, deaf pea, how does one accurately tune a doubl bass?

[deaf pea]

Originally Posted by uprightben

Well then, deaf pea, how does one accurately tune a doubl bass?

That's my point . . . I think that we bassists need to be aware of the fact that the open strings are not necessarily "in tune" with the notes of the equal-tempered scale. Just as I am "aware" that NONE of the notes on my fretted slabs are "in tune" with the notes of the equal-tempered scale. When I'm recording (on the fretted slab), I usually tune (using a Peterson strobe tuner) the notes that are the "most important" in the particular key that the song is in (those note positions that I'll actually be using in the bass part). That way, the bass part is as close to being "in tune" with the notes of the equal-tempered scale as is possible.

As to your question, I know of 2 ways to accurately tune the open strings to the notes of the equal-tempered scale. One is to use a strobe tuner (like the Peterson, or the older Conn models). The other is to tune EACH of the open strings (or the octave - or double octave - harmonic) to it's own, equal-tempered, tuning fork. That means having 4 (or 5) tuning forks . . .

I think that Damon Rondeau has the right idea (although I don't agree that the tuning of the open strings is "a trivial matter").

"You play in tune with the instruments you're playing with."

Yeah. That sounds just about as good as it can be!

Originally Posted by Damon Rondeau

The OPEN STRINGS are a trivial matter. You play in tune with the instruments you're playing with. Is the un-temperedness of your open string really bumming you out as you're playing? Don't play the open string.

[Don Higdon]

When I get to a club, the first thing I do is put the tuner on the piano to see how far off it is. Then I tune the bass with the same error margin. I need a tuner in a club to get past the noise of glasses, trays, yappers, and the drummer.
In the symphony, if I'm early, I use the fork to keep my pitch discrimination healthy. But if the trombones are warming up, I can't even hear the fork, and out comes the tuner.

[Elisa]

As a violinist now learning bass, when tuning in 5ths (violins are strung from the G just below middle C to D-A-E) and tuning using the bow, the sound wave "wobble" is eliminated when the fiddle is in tune. I am eating up all bass info but not using a bow - yet. I have always used an A 440 tuning fork for violin. I think there MAY be variation in the electronic tuner A due to their country of manufacturing origin, but whatever the reason, I find there to be variation. Gimme that tuning fork every time, or, if in a band situation, the instrument which can NOT be changed, e.g. an accordion or acoustic piano. When all else fails and the gig is in an impossibly noisy place, then out comes the glow-in-the-dark electronic tuner.

[sonix]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

But if the trombones are warming up, I can't even hear the fork, and out comes the tuner.

Do you hold up your tuning fork to your ear, or do you hold it in your teeth?

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by sonix

Do you hold up your tuning fork to your ear, or do you hold it in your teeth?

I hold the end of the handle where the condylar process of the mandible and the zygomatic arch meet, in front of the tragus.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

I hold the end of the handle where the condylar process of the mandible and the zygomatic arch meet, in front of the tragus.

Is that with your trousers off?

[Don Higdon]

No. The fork needs a hard surface. Maybe I should say 'not anymore'.