Should all string heights be the same?

[BigDalBass]

Hi all. Forgive me if this is a silly question. Continuing my journey into the world of slap playing I have taken off the steel strings that came fitted to my DB and invested in a set of Innovation Super Silvers which I'm getting on quite well with. However I have a question (another question! lol) about string heights. I had my DB set up by a luthier when I first got it before I tried slapping and the action was set quite low I think. This was good for finding my way around the neck without too much strain on my left hand, but now I'm trying to slap a bit it feels too low. I've read a few threads both on this forum and on rockabillybass.com and as a rough guide a string height of 9 - 11mm seems about average for the slap technique (please correct me if I'm wrong). On my DB at the mo the E and A strings are set higher than the D and G each one a bit lower than the one before. Is this right or should the string heights be the same? Obviously there is a natural radius to the fretboard and bridge but I seem to be able to slap the E and A much easier than the lower (height) D and G. Hope this makes sense...

[Paul Warburton]

So, yer bass came with a fretboard...cool.
Mine just came with that old ugly, plain black ****. And.....get this.....NO damn frets!

[BigDalBass]

Yeah s'pose that shows what a newbie I am, meant fingerboard (I think!). lol Do you have anything to add that might actually be helpful?

[Rattman]

Question: "should all string heights be the same?" No... curled fibgers are certainly not flat, so imagine trying to play on that kind of a unnaturally-shaped surface.. I know...I know: .. "keyboards are flat!" This is true, however your angle of 'attack' is from a completely differant vector opposed to playing a guitar/bass fretboard.

[Paul Warburton]

Hey, man...I was just yankin' yer chain....I do that a lot around here. Everybody puts up with it 'cause I'm so old.
Just consider it my welcome to you here on the board.

Your Bridge is shaped that way for many reasons. Most important....it allows people who use the bow to access all the strings.

[BigDalBass]

Lol I kind of gathered that you were joking Paul, forgive my dry response. Thanks for your help and quick replies chaps much appreciated. Happy new year!!!

[PaulKing]

Even Paul has missed the point here.
BDB isn't talking about the curvature of the bridge top, or the arrangement of the strings in an arc for bowing ...

Surely he's talking about action... height above the fingerboard?

Dal, it is typical for the E to have the highest action, and yes many slappers set the action from around 11 on the E to 9 on the A. I think the difference is really due to the thickness of the strings (see below), as well as the need for greater space for vibration under the E and A strings.

But personal preference plays a big part in your choice, as well as the size of your fingers and guage of strings:
It's perfectly possible to slap on a really low action (7-8mm), especially with thin gauge steels. In fact the lower the action, the easier it is to slap. But with fatter strings it can be hard to get your finger tip under the string to grab it properly if it's too low (especially after a couple of hours, your fingers start to tire), so many gut and nylon players raise the action way up, over 15mm, so they can just yank hard and bounce their hand on the strings all night long.
Higher action means you can play a bit louder too.

Technique also varies though ... look at Willie Dixon: thick guts and low action, looks to me like most of his slap was from his big fat hand hitting the strings.
Whereas rockabilly players often get more of their fingertip beneath the string to pull it out as far as possible and snap back onto the board in those stomping alternating fifth tunes.

But once you do get into higher action territory (beyond 9-10mm) there's less reason to vary the action between strings ... so it's not uncommon, or wrong, for rockabilly players to set the strings all at equal heights.

That's equal action heights people. No-one mentioned flattening the bridge off here....

[Bass]

Originally Posted by PaulKing

....it's not uncommon, or wrong, for rockabilly players to set the strings all at equal heights....

+1 Big Dal, I have the same problem as you right now, the Luthier set up my bass with action of about 8 mm at the E-string, and lowered each string progressively, so the G-string is way too low. Even though I told him I wanted it at 8 mm across the board.

Thank-you Paul King for being helpful, as opposed to Mr. Warburton who has nothing useful or remotely humorous to add here. Seems like he picked up where Ken Smith left off.

[txstatebass]

I'm going to have to disagree with setting the action equally across all strings. When I slap (admittedly more Milt Hinton than Lee Rocker) I prefer the curvature as it helps me isolate one string, as well as offering a much softer landing with witch to "roll" the palm across the strings. It helps keep the sound cleaner, with little or no extraneous noise coming from other strings. That's my $0.02

[PaulKing]

I'm still confused about your responses here ... txstate?

With equal action height on all strings, there's still plenty of curvature ... they follow the curve of the fingerboard.

I completely agree that the curvature of the string profile, (whatever the action height) helps your fingers find the strings, and makes for natural movement. I've an EUB with relatively flat bridge and board, and it's harder to play comfortably.

But I find it hard to believe the 2-3 mm difference in height from E-G alters the curvature enough to make any difference. And anyway, isn't the effect of having higher E and A action to slightly DECREASE the curvature of the string profile... which contradicts your point.

The only way to increase profile curvature would be to raise action on the A and D compared to E and G.

For clarity, how do you define action height? To me it's height above f/board, not height of bridge, which seems to be what you're thinking ... (surely no-one in their right mind would play with completely flat strings, and a square bridge !)

This thread is all about having each string an equal height above the fingerboard (so with definite curved profile), not about having the strings in a flat line like on an e-bass. Am I missing something here? Is everyone talking e-bass?

[txstatebass]

Originally Posted by PaulKing

... (surely no-one in their right mind would play with completely flat strings, and a square bridge !)

You'd be surprised... To clarify, I was under the impression that the OP was contemplating just that. If not, then my apologies.

As far as string height is concerned... I've never really found it absolutely necessary to be able to stick your fist under the strings (just a joke guys). I've always felt, and this is just my opinion here, that the strings should be just high enough to be able to consistently get the tip of your index and or middle finger under them. Of course I play everything from Classical rep to Rockabilly to salsa, so my setup reflects a need to do anything. With a 43 inch mensure a couple of milimeters makes a HUGE difference under my fingers as far as tension is concerned. The crazy Texas weather can make my bass swell that direction all the time, so the adjusters are imperative.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by PaulKing

Even Paul has missed the point here.

****, Paul honey........you right! Thanks for nailin' my old ass!
I'm gonna have a nice nappy now.

[JeffKissell]

2 points - very important!

1) Double bass string height is called string height not "action." (Action is for guitars, bass guitars, gambling, single bars, etc.)

2) The difference in height from the E string to the G string has to do with the relative arc the string travels when it is sounding. The E string has a bigger diameter so it needs more room to move. The set-up the OP has is correct though maybe not what he asked for. I believe the luthier in this case defaulted to his own experience rather than the experience of the OP. The string height AND the curvature of a bridge are directly and completely related to what determines playability whether it's for slap, pizzicato, acro, or any combination of anything else. The height is determined at the end of the fingerboard.

Sorry to be a bitch about such things but it doesn't take that much effort to understand the basics of a double bass anatomy and function.

End of rant...

-J

p.s.- PW I'm sorry the tykes have got you down.

[BigDalBass]

Wow guys! Just got home from rehearsals and found all these new replies thanks so much. PaulKing you got where I am coming from straight away. I am indeed talking about the action, height of each string above the f/board. I thought that the natural curve to the f/board and bridge would still allow for string isolation, although what Rattman said about the angle of attack made sense. Thanks also to Bass, I thought I was the only person having this issue and was reluctant to mention it to the luthier for fear of looking stupid. Although I looked pretty stupid when I mentioned the "fretboard" in my original question! lol. PaulKing I have found today that my right hand was stiffening up while I was playing where I was trying to grab the D and G strings! How you guys stay loose and relaxed I'll never know. Hopefully it will come in time once I've got this action issue sorted. Have also decided to try to find some low tension strings with steel in them somewhere as although I like the feel of the Super Silvers to play, I just couldn't get the volume with the piezo pickup alone. I had the luthier fit both piezo and magnetic pickups to my DB with a dual volume pot and blend pot. Any suggestions for low tension steels or steel/synthetic hybrids (if they even exist)? Also Paul I did reply to your PM about popping over for some pointers on the slapping technique don't know if you received it. If u think u may be available I'd like to take u up on the offer as this DB business is much more involved than I imagined. Cheers to all. D

[BigDalBass]

Thanks for the rant Jeff was very helpful. I'm still learning the correct terms for DB related stuff and I am from a bass guitar playing background so please forgive my ignorance. We all have to start somewhere! lol. Your second point made sense that the E string has a bigger diameter so needs more room to move. I think I'll just get the luthier to raise the bridge up until the D and G strings are at a more comfortable height for slapping but leave the relative "string height" as is.

[PaulKing]

Originally Posted by JeffKissell

2 points - very important!

1) Double bass string height is called string height not "action." (Action is for guitars, bass guitars, gambling, single bars, etc.)

2) The difference in height from the E string to the G string has to do with the relative arc the string travels when it is sounding. The E string has a bigger diameter so it needs more room to move. The set-up the OP has is correct though maybe not what he asked for. I believe the luthier in this case defaulted to his own experience rather than the experience of the OP. The string height AND the curvature of a bridge are directly and completely related to what determines playability whether it's for slap, pizzicato, acro, or any combination of anything else. The height is determined at the end of the fingerboard.

Sorry to be a bitch about such things but it doesn't take that much effort to understand the basics of a double bass anatomy and function.

End of rant...

-J

p.s.- PW I'm sorry the tykes have got you down.

I'm not sure what you're ranting about, there's only one point of fact you're correcting:

On point 1 - noted, I actually didn't know that. Thankyou for correcting me.

Point 2 - like I said, precisely. String height and curvature are absolutely essential. Did anyone, most of all me, say they weren't? And for orchestral and jazz styles, the correct set up certainly requires varied string height as we've all described. But I still think my point stands about the decreased significance of the relative string height when you're talking 12-15mm height for big old slappity thud playing. At this height and for this technique, an equal string height across the strings can be very playable. We're not talking Stanley Clarke here. I'm not pushing excessive height as a good idea - my own choice is for much lower height, where the variance from E to G is essential. But some slap style players do choose this set up. You cannot disagree with me, this is a fact.

Don't apologise for bitching, I don't think there was anything for you to bitch about. Except possibly being too lazy to read this thread fully, and jumping to conclusions about the intent and capacity of people in this little section of the forum to comment on such high faluting subjects as the way a string sits on a musical instrument.

As for the 'tykes' getting PW down... He misunderstood the OP, like I said, like he agreed. Where's the problem with that? So his gags missed the target a bit. No problem, I still laughed. The OP politely wondered why people we're dissing him for asking a sensible question. But then people round here like to diss posts in this section ... I've a suspicion it where they come for a little fun, to laugh at the tykes who play rowdy pop music.

As for being called tykes ... I wonder if I was included in that little bitch? I am 40. I have a beautiful daughter. I have 20 years bass playing behind me.
So I think not.

If I've misinterpreted your comment, apologies. If not, screw you, and the recurrent snobbery that taints this board.

Is this my swansong?

[PaulKing]

Originally Posted by BigDalBass

Also Paul I did reply to your PM about popping over for some pointers on the slapping technique don't know if you received it. If u think u may be available I'd like to take u up on the offer as this DB business is much more involved than I imagined. Cheers to all. D

Sorry mate, I thought I'd replied again, been a busy Christmas.
Absolutely, would be very happy to spend an afternoon. I think it's going to have to wait a few weeks though, as I'm off working in the States til 2nd week in Feb. There's another guy keen to pick up some tips too ... serious bassist, plays for Paul Young! I'll be ashamed at my lack of chops against him, but he wants to know how to slap!

I'll get in touch early Feb, is that any use?

Happy New Year all.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by PaulKing

As for the 'tykes' getting PW down... He misunderstood the OP, like I said, like he agreed. Where's the problem with that? So his gags missed the target a bit. No problem, I still laughed. The OP politely wondered why people we're dissing him for asking a sensible question. But then people round here like to diss posts in this section ... I've a suspicion it where they come for a little fun, to laugh at the tykes who play rowdy pop music.

As far as your "swan song" goes, Paul....I hope you don't go there. As I said, and you said, and once more I clarify...I misunderstood the OP..you jumped in, and with respect alluded to my comment by saying " even Paul ". I love that, man...thanks. It was a nice gesture.
Jeff...Thanks for you're concern. It takes a lot more than a few "tykes" to get me down. As far as "tykes" are concerned, I've mentored a couple here on the board who are doing great things in New York city. If you're curious, look around....they've posted links to sites where you can hear them.
I do get a bit tired of defending myself here though.
BASS....thanks for your shots at me and my old, and respected friend Ken Smith. I'm honored to be mentioned in the same sentence with him.
This board is just like life, BASS....some concern, some love, some involvement.....But what I Do like about it is, we can truly be ourselves.
You obviously don't like me and I dont like you or the things you've said about me. We DO have that in common..that's life.

[Bass]

I don't get why the action (we're in the Rockabilly forum here folks) has to be different on each string? Mine is about 7 mm on each string I think, maybe I'll go measure.

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

......BASS....You obviously don't like me and I dont like you or the things you've said about me. We DO have that in common..that's life.

I don't think I ever said anything nasty about you, and I challenge you to find anything on this or any other thread. You will come up short.

I said that your smart @ss comment wasn't funny or helpful, and it reminded me of something Ken Smith would say.

Ha ha ha, PW doesn't like me.

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by Bass

I said that your smart @ss comment wasn't funny or helpful,

If you chase PW away, I swear we'll both come up there and explain the difference between the vortexes in violin/gamba cornered basses..... at length

Lest we forget.