5 string help

[gnasher1993]

First of all, I'm very new to all this string business so go easy . I've had a read through all the stickies so should be able to help you understand what I'm after.

My bass is going in for a set-up soon which I'm going to combine with a restring as I'm not happy with the Spirocores on my bass at the moment, the bass came strung with them and I haven't thought about changing them.

It's a 5 string bass which is strung up with a low B at the moment. I want to string it with a high C instead.

What I don't like about the Spirocores:

• High tension.
• Very thick gauge.
• I'm starting to use the bow more and they sound a bit weak under the bow.

I mainly play jazz/free improvised music so I play a fairly even mix of arco/pizz. I'd like a lower tension than the Spirocores and a thinner gauge.

I don't really know how to describe the sound I want as I don't have much experience with the terminology alot of you guys use to describe sounds (I don't know what each word sounds like if that makes sense). But...if it's any help, my favourite bass sound is Anders Jormin's.

I don't know whether it matters but for amplification, I use a Shadow pickup and Genz-Benz Shuttle 3.0-8T.

I'm just looking for some general help really as I don't know where to start. Let me know if you need more information.

Thanks in advance,

AJ

[Chris Symer]

Although Spirocores are not everybodys first choice for arco strings, there are plenty of people that love them with the bow. Even if on your bass you don't happen to like the way they sound arco, I'm really surprised to hear you use the term "weak" to describe them. They are a loudstring and long lasting to boot. What are you comparing the Spiros to that you think they are high tension and large diameter? They are such a ubiquitous bass string they are often used as the reference point for tension/gauge.

If you want a small diameter string look at the Correlli's. I've played the 370tx in the past and liked them. I believe they make a high C as well.

As for Anders Jormin's sound- which I love- last thing I knew he was a Spirocore guy all the way.

[gnasher1993]

Originally Posted by Chris Symer

Although Spirocores are not everybodys first choice for arco strings, there are plenty of people that love them with the bow. Even if on your bass you don't happen to like the way they sound arco, I'm really surprised to hear you use the term "weak" to describe them. They are a loudstring and long lasting to boot. What are you comparing the Spiros to that you think they are high tension and large diameter? They are such a ubiquitous bass string they are often used as the reference point for tension/gauge.

If you want a small diameter string look at the Correlli's. I've played the 370tx in the past and liked them. I believe they make a high C as well.

As for Anders Jormin's sound- which I love- last thing I knew he was a Spirocore guy all the way.

I'm comparing them to the strings on my bass teacher's bass which I think are called belcanto (that might be wrong though).

I really struggle to make the Spirocores speak well with the bow compared to the belcantos. They just sound a little bit brittle and thin with the bow to me.

[Chris Symer]

Yea, the Becantos do start easily with the bow and have a very nice sound. The Belcanto set isn't going to get you the long sustaining pizz sound of the spiros though.....As many here will tell you, it gets really expensive figuring out which strings work best on your own bass for the music that you play.

[Co.]

What kind of Spirocore do you have? Look at the silk in the Scroll: Yellow=Solo, Purple=Weich, Red=Mittel, Green=Stark.

My Bass works arco much better with Weichs compared to either Solos or Mittels. And the weichs work even better than Pirastro Permanents, wich are a great arco string. Once you learned how the Spirocores work you can do anything with them.
There are of course better strings for orchestra playing, but if are into free/improvised music, the only strings that are as expressive and friendly to extended techniques are gut strings. Compare Barry Guy (Steel) to Wilbert de Joode (gut).

Look at players who use them and see if you like what they do with Spirocores: Stefano Scodanibbio (Solos), Fernando Grillo (Solos), Mark Dresser (Mittels?), Edicson Ruiz! (Solos), Barry Guy (5-String with High C),...

[gnasher1993]

They're red silks, so mittels? I'm just really struggling to get them to speak with the bow. My main bow's got a really good crop of hair so I'm fairly convinced it's the strings on my bass. I don't have any problem with the Belcanto's on my teacher's bass.

I get a really lovely pizz sound with the spiro mittels but it's the arco tone I'm not happy with.

I really like Barry Guy's tone and also Stefano Scodanibbio. I especially like Edicson Ruiz's bowed sound, it's incredible! So, maybe it's worth me trying a different kind of Spiros.

Can you get lower tension spirocores? Sorry if that sounds like a stupid question. They feel like they're really high tension on my bass, I don't know whether that's the usual.

[JtheJazzMan]

Spiro mittels are a fair chunk of metal. If youre not getting power out of them something else is going wrong. Maybe your bow, maybe the setup on your bass (soundpost etc)

At the moment Im using all spiro weichs. They start out really metallic sounding, but after a couple of months they mellow out to a really nice focused arco sound. No scratchiness. If there is, its your bow or your technique.

[Co.]

Experiment with rosin type and amount applied to hair. Pops work good. I like Kolstein allweather better. Gives ma a darker more sophisticated and "controlled" sound.

Spiro Mittels are higher tension and harder to bow than Weichs. Solos are made to be be tuned a step higher than normal, so when you tune them normally the tension is even lower than the Weichs, but I don't like them personally. I can't get a strong pizz attack out of them. I really recommend trying Spirocore Weich, leaving them on the bass until they break and just practise on bowing and pizzicato technique.

[gnasher1993]

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Spiro mittels are a fair chunk of metal. If youre not getting power out of them something else is going wrong. Maybe your bow, maybe the setup on your bass (soundpost etc)

At the moment Im using all spiro weichs. They start out really metallic sounding, but after a couple of months they mellow out to a really nice focused arco sound. No scratchiness. If there is, its your bow or your technique.

I don't know. I don't think it's my bow, I'm honestly not sure. If it is, what could be wrong?

I'm fairly certain it's not a technique issue. I've worked hard to get my arco technique to where it is and as I've said, I don't have any problems with the Belcantos. Hmm...really not sure what the problem could be. The spiros just sound a bit tinny and weak under the bow. There isn't any scratchiness though.

Originally Posted by Co.

Experiment with rosin type and amount applied to hair. Pops work good. I like Kolstein allweather better. Gives ma a darker more sophisticated and "controlled" sound.

Spiro Mittels are higher tension and harder to bow than Weichs. Solos are made to be be tuned a step higher than normal, so when you tune them normally the tension is even lower than the Weichs, but I don't like them personally. I can't get a strong pizz attack out of them. I really recommend trying Spirocore Weich, leaving them on the bass until they break and just practise on bowing and pizzicato technique.

I'm using Nyman Harts rosin at the moment, I'm not happy with it though, simply because it can be really hard to apply if it gets too soft. I've put pops on before, wasn't mine though so have only used it once. I found it to be quite sticky and seemed to grip well. I might try it again. Never tried Kolstein rosin, can't find any available in the UK though. Where do you get yours from? I could order from Germany I guess.

Back to strings though. Definitely not happy with the Mittels though, I'm playing in between posting. I can get them to start well but the sound doesn't have much body to it, still sounds quite tinny. I'll definitely give the Weichs a try and possibly the Solos. Can you get a high C in both sets?

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by gnasher1993

I don't know. I don't think it's my bow, I'm honestly not sure. If it is, what could be wrong?

I'm fairly certain it's not a technique issue. I've worked hard to get my arco technique to where it is and as I've said, I don't have any problems with the Belcantos. Hmm...really not sure what the problem could be. The spiros just sound a bit tinny and weak under the bow. There isn't any scratchiness though.

My first bow was a cheap CF one, which had a very stiff stick. It would draw a thinner tone.

When I upgraded my bow, the tone was instantly much smoother and drew far more bass frequencies out of the instrument.

Sounding tinny is normal for spiros if they are new and havent mellowed out yet. But weak? Thats a mystery.

[sjd007]

Have you heard any Thomanstic Dominants? They may be a more mellow string with non-metal core and should have reasonable projection.

My last bass was strung wth dominants and they sounded good pizz and arco.

I have a new 5 string with Belcanto's and it is great for bowing, but I agree a bit too mellow for pizz. I have the low B which is a beaut, but can see if you are spending lot of time pizz then the higher C option would appeal. The Belcantos are big fat strings...!

[Chris Symer]

Originally Posted by gnasher1993

I'm fairly certain it's not a technique issue. I've worked hard to get my arco technique to where it is and as I've said, I don't have any problems with the Belcantos. Hmm...really not sure what the problem could be. The spiros just sound a bit tinny and weak under the bow. There isn't any scratchiness though.

You know, the Belcantos are on your teachers bass, not yours. Set up etc. may be better, as well as the instrument itself. All of it will make a difference. Have you recorded your bass at all? What sounds tinny from the players perspective may actually sound quite different from 3 meters away.

I also find that as strings age they tend to feel stiffer. A new set may feel quite different. You might also like the Weichs...

[Co.]

"I'll definitely give the Weichs a try and possibly the Solos. Can you get a high C in both sets?"

I think there is only a Mittel High C but it might work with the Weich Set. I don't think it will work with tuned down Solos, because the difference in tension will be to high. Renaud Garcia Fons uses Spirocore Weich E, Solo ADG and Pirastro Flatchromesteel C.

There are a lot of High Cs from Pirastro: Oliv, Eudoxa (Gut core with Chrome or Silver), Obligato (Synthetic core with Metal), Permanent, Flatchromesteel, Flexocore (Steel)
All of them are good arco strings, and all of them work as a higher pizz string.

As you already planned to go to the luthier for a setup, you might tell him your problem and let him tweak the soundpost. A different Soundpost position can darken your instrument and enhance arco response.
Dominants are a great string for anything, but if like extended techniques and scordatura tunings they'll break on you.

[JtheJazzMan]

The spirocore mittel high C is a very thin string at around .8mm in diameter. I quite like how it bows, but I only use it on my electric DB.

On my acoustic Im currently using a pirastro flatchromesteel high C with weichs and it blends quite well. It will sound harsh if you use a grippy bow. Best to use white hair and harder solo rosin. Its a very bright arco string, just listen to the tone renaud garcia gets.

I havent tried the flexocore but I imagine it would be a very nice string to play arco.

[gnasher1993]

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

My first bow was a cheap CF one, which had a very stiff stick. It would draw a thinner tone. When I upgraded my bow, the tone was instantly much smoother and drew far more bass frequencies out of the instrument. Sounding tinny is normal for spiros if they are new and havent mellowed out yet. But weak? Thats a mystery.

I’ve been told that it’s a good quality bow but I’m unsure of its origins. It’s a French style bow but it has a fairly heavy frog so has the weight of a German bow. It’s a got a really thick crop of black hair. I really like the bow actually, I'm very happy with it.

Originally Posted by sjd007

Have you heard any Thomanstic Dominants? They may be a more mellow string with non-metal core and should have reasonable projection. My last bass was strung wth dominants and they sounded good pizz and arco. I have a new 5 string with Belcanto's and it is great for bowing, but I agree a bit too mellow for pizz. I have the low B which is a beaut, but can see if you are spending lot of time pizz then the higher C option would appeal. The Belcantos are big fat strings...!

I haven’t heard any dominants. Are there any players who have recorded with them so I can have a listen?

I’m changing the tuning to a high C instead of the B because I don’t use the B very much.

Originally Posted by Chris Symer

You know, the Belcantos are on your teachers bass, not yours. Set up etc. may be better, as well as the instrument itself. All of it will make a difference. Have you recorded your bass at all? What sounds tinny from the players perspective may actually sound quite different from 3 meters away. I also find that as strings age they tend to feel stiffer. A new set may feel quite different. You might also like the Weichs...

I didn’t know the setup made such a difference! I’m definitely taking my bass in for a setup as it’s not that comfortable at present. I haven’t recorded my bass but I might do to get other people’s opinions. I’m not sure how old the strings are but they feel very stiff. The Weichs are definitely at the top of my list to try.

Originally Posted by Co.

"I'll definitely give the Weichs a try and possibly the Solos. Can you get a high C in both sets?" I think there is only a Mittel High C but it might work with the Weich Set. I don't think it will work with tuned down Solos, because the difference in tension will be to high. Renaud Garcia Fons uses Spirocore Weich E, Solo ADG and Pirastro Flatchromesteel C. There are a lot of High Cs from Pirastro: Oliv, Eudoxa (Gut core with Chrome or Silver), Obligato (Synthetic core with Metal), Permanent, Flatchromesteel, Flexocore (Steel) All of them are good arco strings, and all of them work as a higher pizz string. As you already planned to go to the luthier for a setup, you might tell him your problem and let him tweak the soundpost. A different Soundpost position can darken your instrument and enhance arco response. Dominants are a great string for anything, but if like extended techniques and scordatura tunings they'll break on you.

I found the Pirastro strings last night and was surprised to see that they had a high C option in most of the sets. Renaud Garcia Fons has a really nice tone, I like it alot. The Mittel G is probably my least favourite out of the set so I’m wondering whether the C will be similar. I find the G to have quite a thin sound, especially under the bow, a bit scratchy as well compared to the other strings.

I’ll definitely talk to the luthier about adjusting the soundpost if that will likely make a difference. As I said earlier, I didn’t know the setup made such a huge difference.

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

The spirocore mittel high C is a very thin string at around .8mm in diameter. I quite like how it bows, but I only use it on my electric DB. On my acoustic Im currently using a pirastro flatchromesteel high C with weichs and it blends quite well. It will sound harsh if you use a grippy bow. Best to use white hair and harder solo rosin. Its a very bright arco string, just listen to the tone renaud garcia gets. I havent tried the flexocore but I imagine it would be a very nice string to play arco.

I’m definitely going to have a look at the Pirastro C strings. My bow is very grippy and has black hair. Also, I’ve just ordered some pops rosin because of its stickiness, which may also get that harsh sound.

Thanks for all your help guys, I really appreciate it. I’m very new to all this and I’ve learnt alot already, so thanks!

One quick question...is it worth buying strings 2nd hand strings just to give them a try? Or is that not a good idea? I'm just thinking it will get very expensive trying all these strings until I find a combination I like .

[gnasher1993]

'nother quick question...

Will I need to get a new nut and a new bridge if I'm changing my tuning from B-G to E-C?

[JtheJazzMan]

Probably. If you get a buzzing on open strings the nut grooves may be too big.

If the nut is just held in under tension, its very easy for a luthier to make a new one.

Cutting a new bridge is pricey, but I doubt you will need a new one. Maybe the grooves will need to be reshaped a little to accomodate the thinner strings, and if you have adjusters it makes it even easier.

[jon3673]

As JtheJazzMan said, you will probably only have to replace the nut. Also, if you’re tuning keys are set up similar to mine (with the B & E keys on the side next to you) there should not be a reason for any string breaking problems by going to a high “C”. I have found that this problem only exists when one tries the opposite. That is, if your UB is equipped with two tuning keys on the right (the opposite of what is seen in my picture) it was designed to be strung as E-C. And then, if one tries to add a lo “B”, it will break. This is because of the drastic angle imposed by having the bottom tuning key so close to the nut.
Another consideration of playing a 5 string bass is its size! I have found that, in order to get good response with a B string, one really needs a 7/8 or 4/4 (or maybe even a 5/4) size UB. It’s sort of the difference one experiences when listening to a bass using an 8” speaker verses an 18” speaker.
I used the Thomastik “Wien” strings for many years, however, I play pizzicato about 98% if the time, so I really cannot testify about the arco sound. Also they did not make a soft “B” so I moved over to a different “and softer” sting. I have now experienced great sound and response on my 5 string UB by using the Innovation 140H non-metallic core strings.
I also used the Genz-Benz Shuttle 3.0 when it first came out, but was not excited over its response with my lo B. I then tried the Acoustic Image Contra (which has a down facing 10” speaker) and have now exclusively moved to the use of that amp. I drive it with an Underwood pickup. It sounds acoustically just like my UB, only louder!
Again, the problems that I encountered with my UB were mostly related to the lo B string, so by moving to a hi C, you will eliminate about 90% of your physical response and amplification problems.
You will also have eliminated about 90% of reason why I play an UB! Although, I will admit that a C string will have a much better sound than a G string has in the thumb position. However, the reason that I went to the lo B was to allow me to work with horn players (who like to play in flat keys!) and it even allowed me to end “Body & Soul” on a lo “Db”.

Ah . . . .Nectar of the Gods! How could one walk away from that?

[DoubleMIDI]

Since I have two 5-string basses (with high c) now and almost always was unhappy with my Thomastik Spirocore mittels on my acoustic Wilfer (I quickly changed from a Spirocore mittel high C to a Pirastro Flexocore high C keeping the other four Thomastiks) I decided two months ago to take out some money and order a bunch of high C strings.

I wanted something with less tension, because once I played in a little string orchestra some baroque piece with 415 Hz pitched recorders, so I had to tune down my instrument about a half tone and ... it played nicely and sounded more open.

After checking some strings tensions and calculation for tensions, I decided to try some of the softer strings and ordered a Thomastik Spirocore weich G (3/4 for the Clevinger EUB) and a Pirastro Obligato high C (synthetic kernel, but sounds rather steel-like).

Later I ordered the following:
Super Sensitive Supreme high C (probably useable together with Spirocore weich)
Savarez Corelli 389TX high C (better than the Supreme in sound but for mittels, not weich)

I was also interested in the Pirastro Evah Pirazzi weich strings (no high C, regulars have a high C but are heavier than the Obligatos, too much for me) for my Wilfer, so I ordered a G to compare it with other similary constructed strings for high C.
I ordered the following high Cs:
Super Sensitive Sensicore high C (much too soft for my taste, sounds like plastic, non-magnetic)
Innovation Honey 140 H high C (didn't got this one yet)

I'm still thinking to order:
Savarez Corelli 389M or 379M high C (with Spirocore weich)
Pirastro Permanent high C (with Evah Pirazzi weich)
Pirastro Flat-Chromesteel high C (with Spirocore weich)
Pirastro Flexocore high C (with Spirocore weich, but I don't think I will be satisfied)
Thomastik Spirocore weich 4/4 G (to check weichs on my acoustic double bass)

As I said the Spirocore mittel was a pain to play, specially in the thumb position. Since my one was a 4/4 string it would be a bit softer on a 3/4, but not enough to match the 3/4 Spirocore mittel. Please note, that Thomastik is the only company I know who makes different strings for 3/4 and 4/4 size. Since most strings are constructed for 3/4 instruments, they are harder in tension on a 4/4 instrument. It's a bit less than the difference between mittel and weich.
I would think the Corelli M-gauge would be the best match tension-wise for the Spirocore mittel, but I haven't tried it yet. The Corelli TX was better than the Spirocore mittel and the (old and no longer produced Original-) Flexocore an my 4/4, but a bit too short for the 109 cm 4/4 bass (no problem with any of the other strings). The (Original-) Flexocore was too much damped for pizzicatio in higher positions.
The Obligato is currently the best match to the Spirocore weich together with the Corelli 389TX, but both have a bit more tension than the Spirocore weich. The Obligato is easier to play because of the larger diameter. Unfortunately the Obligato does not match well the Evah Pirazzi in sound. So Obligato/Evah is no soulution for me. And the Obligato rolling problem (for lower strings) and winding separation (which I got a bit on my high C directly below the saddle) dequalifies these strings for a complete set for me.

From tension measurements I found in the internet Flat-Chromesteel does not match too well tension-wise with the Spirocore weich, but most other Pirastro or Thomastik strings are worse in this respect. Maybe the sound matches the Spirocores better than the Corellis.

Velvet Compas180 High C is rather expensive, Evah Pirazzi weich high C even more (could be ordered for three times the price of a regular, i.e. E.P. regular high C Evah Pirazzi string), Thomastik would make Spirocore weich high C on request but you need to order at least 12 identical strings at a higher price as the regular one (didn't ask for a concrete price tag yet). This could be an option if several people want some of them, probably most interests for 3/4 size.

I would first try high C strings and then either order the complete set afterwards or go with a regular 4-string set (or a single string first) and try the available options for high C to match. But the second route can become expensive.

Sometimes I think I might abandon the high C. It is so much easier to find low tension low C/B sets than high C set or combinations.
The Spirocore weich G sounds so well in high thumb position and is much better bowable than the Spirocore mittel, so the reason for better sounding high notes get weaker than before. And the same notes on the Corelli and Obligato don't sound longer/better on the high C than on the Spirocore weich G. Maybe the Corelli 389M is better...

I hope my experiences could help a little bit.

Jörg

[DoubleMIDI]

Addendum:

I forgot that I also tried Pyramid steel strings, but I didn't like both of them.

The Pyramid Gold Student has a massive steel kernel and sounds very metallic.
I asked Pyramid for a Soloflex high C which is not part of the regular program. I got it rather soon (here inside Germany) for a regular string price (about 26,50 Euro each).

I asked for a 3/4 and 4/4 since the Gold Student only fits on a 3/4.
For my taste the kernel steel rope was too stiff and the sound much more metallic than the Spirocore weich. Tension matching was OK.
If you like the sound you might want to try a whole set. "MartinC" talked about quality problems. I don't have enough experience to proove or deny that.

BTW, the people at Pyramid were much more responsive than the ones at Thomastik (a bit late) or Pirastro (even later and very limited information).

Since the sound of strings changes over time (most at the beginning) you sound not decide about the sound of a string before it hasn't been played for at least a week.

Jörg