Darkest Sounding Steels

Jason Sypher · #1 04-28-2008, 11:19 AM

Everyone knows I'm a gut head. But recently, and this happens every so often, I hear some bass players who are steel players and I really dig the sound. Recently this has included Danny Thompson and Larry Grenadier (I know he's a Velvet guy). It's a crazy thought but hey, what the hell. So, what are the darkest sounding steels. They gotta bow great as well. And, they shouldn't be so tight that they hurt. I've got a red spiro A and E already. Like the E don't like the A. Any thoughts?

Gornick · #2 04-28-2008, 11:51 AM

There's the flexocore 92's that I used for a little while.... the mediums are much looser than the Spiro's and they are ridiculously easy to bow. The pizz is very workable but can be a bit slow, for that reason some don't like 'em. Definitely the darkest string I have played.

basstef · #3 04-28-2008, 12:00 PM

I am having very good results with jargars forte G&D for a long time. I love the sound of gut but I quit it years ago because I was tired of its short life, slow response, etc.
I've found a great compromise in the jargars. They're extremely dark, but still with a nice sustain when plucked. They bow great, last long and they're cheap ... what should I ask more ?
Anyway I am curious to give a try to the Flexocor 92's G&D soon.

Eric Swanson · #4 04-28-2008, 12:10 PM

Have you tried the Bel Cantos? I happen to like the pizz sound...more "old school" than the Spiro thing. Not as much sustain as some strings, but still some growl, nice and warm...

Reuben · #5 04-28-2008, 12:11 PM

Jason, you might like the Bel Cantos. They were too dark for me, but there was a lot to like about them. They are softer under the fingers than most medium steels, and with some play to them, but they are quite dark with a nice center to the sound, and they bow great.

Uncletoad · #6 04-28-2008, 01:08 PM

It's an interesting trade off that I've not finished squaring off with yet. Part of that journey is being chronicled in "Toad's Steel Period". I'm nowhere near done or settled with that.

Here's what I know today:

I really am stuck on Spirocores for my E/A. When they wear in they really work well for me. Not at all gutlike but they "work" in most contexts.

The Belcanto D/G is pretty decent tradeoff for gut, low tension, speaks well, darkish. Slightly slower attack characteristics like all the arco centered strings. The regular Flexocor 92 are higher in tension and darker still but match up well tension wise with spiros. They are also slower to attack maybe even more so than the Belcanto.

The Stark Flexocor are much quicker on the front end of the note but they are pretty high tension, especially when moving from Gut. Dark as well but sometimes just a bit unfocused. They can wear a guy out on a long gig or a particularly hard pounding one. I swapped out the D Stark for a Spiro D this weekend and that's working better for me. Again the Deader the better.

If you have any penchant for hybrid construction strings the Evah Pirrazzi full set may be worth looking at. It's a great sounding set. I'm not sure I like hybrid strings but they are very compelling. Not really near gut like they claim to be except they are dark strings right out of the box. They have their issues though.

The Oliv D/G on top of spirocores is a nice warm combo too. Not near as dark as the Flexocors, Belcantos or Evah Pirrazi.

The overall thing I'm finding is that plain Gut strings have a nice quick front end to the note and a darkness and depth that steel strings can't quite find. They are also a huge pain in the ass. Steel gives you lots more usable note options around the fingerboard and significantly less hassle. They are generally louder too.

The compromises of both steel and gut are hard to quantify though and a person has to try all the different strings for themselves to be able to prioritize what you can't live without and identify what you are willing to give up.

I haven't figured that out for myself yet.

Jason Sypher · #7 04-28-2008, 01:35 PM

Great responses. Keep them coming. I guess it's a leap into the unknown. I can't say that I'm looking to replicate the gut sound, which I think is a better way of moving forward. I have had a problem with that whiny sitarlike sound in the upper registers that spiros are known for. I don't like it, it doesn't sound like a bass to me. That said, I'm usually bowing in the upper registers, not pizzing. I recently started playing in an Irish session here in Amsterdam. It's a new music for me, though with my background, one I should be able to get a handle on if I apply myself. The first thing I noticed was that my approach on the bass was completely different. The music doesn't need a lot of busy bass. Percussion, kind of my thing, is not that useful either. What is useful is big strong bass notes that ring and fast passages that are quick and clear, two things that are not gut qualities. It got me thinking and hearing in new ways. I'm not sure I can make the switch, I'm pretty enamored with the finer qualities of gut strings, the warmth, the breadth, the earthiness. But, I must say, I do notice a lack of clarity and "core". You're in tune, you're out of tune....can you hear it even? That can be distracting. I know you all know what I'm talking about. Toad, you're a one man search engine on the subject.

I also like the idea of being open to change, to new sonic possibilities.

Eric Swanson · #8 04-29-2008, 05:11 AM

Problem I am finding (having recently switched basses, trying to find the right mix for a new instrument), is that I can get one or the other. I am playing both arco and pizz.

The Bel Cantos are warm on the pizz, but the G string is a little "ducky" from the "F" on up, and not nearly as piercing and 'cello-esque/vocal for arco. They are less perfect as I go up into TP, arco. (Even when I bow pretty close to the bridge.)

+1 on the value of "Toad's Steel Period." Should I really admit that I have read that whole thread?

Also thinking about the other two parts of the arco Trinity; rosin and stick. Noticing that the Kolstein rosins I have been experimenting with on my new bass are definitely darker sounding than my ancient cake of Pops. Plus I recently regripped my bow, which darkened that up a couple of angstroms, too.

All to say that I wonder if different rosin or a lighter stick would help you brighten the tone up, in a subtle way.

My latest findings (as of last night) are that the Bel Cantos are giving me a warmer "older school" pizz, and that if I use my old Pops I am getting a brighter arco sound (but not bright enough, dang it...). Definitely have to replace that G string, at least.

I was watching Edgar Meyer play last night on DVD (with my 3 year-old daughter). With Permanents on the upper two strings, his arco cut the stew and his pizz sounded warm...hmmm

Greg Clinkingbeard · #9 04-29-2008, 06:37 AM

Superflexibles are nice. Although probably not the darkest steels, they are sounding great on my bass. The sound is warm, round and kinda billowy if that makes any sense at all. They bow easily. The tension is about like Weichs to me, but they are larger strings so I feel I can dig in (pizz) and have something to work with.
They sound metallic at first, so anybody trying them should just be patient.

Buzz Grim · #10 05-02-2008, 07:21 PM

Danny Thompson is one of my favorites for playing big, strong, appropriately simple bass. Early Pentangle was my cup of tea.
I read an interview with him a couple of years ago and at that time he had just moved from Spiro Mittles to Spiro Starkes and was loving the sound.
He's also got an instructional video out and the live duo performance with Richard Thompson both of which are worth seeing.
Plus he has an incredible old bass.

Eric Swanson · #11 05-02-2008, 07:49 PM

Please excuse the aside...I seem to remember him doing a nice rendition of Mingus' "Haitian Fight Song" on a Pentangle album. Do I have that right?

Buzz Grim · #12 05-02-2008, 08:42 PM

Yes, A live version of "Haitian fight Song" is on the Pentangle 'Sweet Child" double album which is available on CD.

**Francois Blais** · #13 05-04-2008, 02:54 PM

Darkest steels?
Jargars!

Uncletoad · #14 05-04-2008, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francois

Darkest steels?
Jargars!

Are they slow like Flexocor? Are they made like the arco dampened strings?

I don't think I've seen them on anybody's bass.

**Adrian Cho** · #15 05-04-2008, 09:52 PM

Permanents are pretty dark.

basstef · #16 05-05-2008, 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Are they slow like Flexocor? Are they made like the arco dampened strings?

I don't think I've seen them on anybody's bass.

Jargars are not popular, yes...wonder why. They're very nice strings.
It depends on the bass (both my basses are very good quality) but I've found Flexocor to be slower than Jargars, especially for pizz.
And yes, they're dampened strings.

Jason Sypher · #17 05-05-2008, 02:52 AM

You know, Jargars come up quite a bit here in the strings forum but mysteriously no one (including myself) takes them on. They are recommended for a good alternative to the Spiro-Sitar-Above-The-E-On-The-G-String quite a bit. Curious?

dchan · #18 05-05-2008, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

You know, Jargars come up quite a bit here in the strings forum but mysteriously no one (including myself) takes them on. They are recommended for a good alternative to the Spiro-Sitar-Above-The-E-On-The-G-String quite a bit. Curious?

It's because Flexocors are that good.

But seriously, I was considering them a few years ago. Actually, I think it was better that I didn't decide to get them because I was getting strings for my school's plywood Christopher. Any orchestral string deserves better than a plywood instrument. But I'm still curious about the Jargars. Anybody?

**Francois Blais** · #19 05-05-2008, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Are they slow like Flexocor? Are they made like the arco dampened strings?

I don't think I've seen them on anybody's bass.

In my experience, they're even slower than Flexocors, and yes they're extremely dampened arco strings.

Thy're also available in three gauges; Dolce (green silk) which can be tuned at solo pitch, Medium (blue silk) and Forte (red silk).

Another nice feature if that you can remove the string's balls and mount them in loop fashion.

Uncletoad · #20 05-05-2008, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francois

In my experience, they're even slower than Flexocors, and yes they're extremely dampened arco strings.

Thy're also available in three gauges; Dolce (green silk) which can be tuned at solo pitch, Medium (blue silk) and Forte (red silk).

Another nice feature if that you can remove the string's balls and mount them in loop fashion.

Yea. it's difficult to find a super dark steel pizz string that doesn't slow you down. Sounds like Jargar is more of the same.