Debunking the Spiro Unbowability Myth

[redliner47]

I recently took a lesson with Pascale Delache-Feldman in Boston who has been known to bow spirocores. She had me use the italian grip (thumb in the crook of the frog rather than where the bow meets the frog) along with a health dose of pops. The sound I'm getting from my mittel Spiros has been wonderful even with playing solo pieces like the cello suites. She also had me tighten the hair to a degree than I hadn't done before which also seemed to help.

My only complaint with bowing the Spiros would have to be the weak sounding G string which will hopefull be remedied with the superflexible G I just ordered.

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by jlilley

Jake, you just couldn't resist... could you?
I've never been able to get out in the room and listen to someone else play my bass arco and I have to say the spiros sounded good.
Great hanging with you two!

John

Your bass sounds good when you play it too, John!

[William Hoffman]

Originally Posted by TroyK

...I just don't get how this started. They actually sounded quite beautiful...there are lots of other choices, but it is not hard to bow Spirocores...of any gauge.

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

I witnessed this and its true. The sound Troy was getting was terrific!

I bear witness to this every day. It is true. The only exception is the Spiro G -- a bit too twangy for me -- for which I substitute in a Belcanto G or Oliv G.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by William Hoffman

I bear witness to this every day. It is true. The only exception is the Spiro G -- a bit too twangy for me -- for which I substitute in a Belcanto G or Oliv G.

It's thin on my bass too. Oliv, Original Flatchrome or Belcanto for me too. I've become so used to them when I bow the Evahs on my ply bass they seem funny. Slow and dull in comparison.

[Jason Sypher]

After my well-documented foray into Boutique Guts I'm back to the Spiros. I think they bow nicely and you can dig in and they'll take it. The biggest plus I notice is in the mix...they really fit well and sing like crazy.

[iiipopes]

Would anybody care to comment on which rosins interact better, like the post above talking about Pops?

[William Hoffman]

Originally Posted by TroyK

...You might find that Spirocores are way more arco friendly than you've been lead to believe. Personally, I avoided using them for a long time on this reputation and I just don't think there is anything to it at this point. Mittels, Weichs or Solos. I took classical lessons a few years ago with Spirocore Weichs on, my teacher had Evah Pirazzis, but started talking about switching to Spirocores because she liked mine so much...

I don't have quantitative sales data to back this up, but Spiros may possibly be the biggest selling standard bass strings. And with good reason. They were not only one of the first steel strings on the market, they also have a lot of great characteristics: volume, sustain, brightness, mids, fundamental, warmth, punch, great pizz and arco, and they last for many years. They make my bass vibrate and ring out like no other. And I've tried many others. I keep trying them and I keep coming back to Spiros.

P.S.: the quote from TroyK is from Looking for brighter "Hybrid" type string

[Don Higdon]

Spiro unbowability is not a myth.
OK, "unbowable" is a bit hyperbolic. Of course they can be bowed, but what about the sound?
I've owned 17 basses, from ply to hand carved walnut, and I've put Spiro mittels on every one. Bowed Spiros sounded good on exactly one bass, the Schnitzer walnut, which is in a class (sound and price) of its own. Nevertheless, Bel Cantos sound better. Much. We're playing Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony next week. I can't think of a more inappropriate string than a Spiro.
Some top names play Spiros arco, yes. I view them as I view my walnut bass: the exception that proves the rule.
To my ears, Spiros played arco through an amplifier would make waterboarding unnecessary.
Edit: I forgot to say in my humble opinion.

[Nathan Parker]

+1 to what Don said.

It's clear you can play arco on them. Whether or not they are the optimal choice for arco is a different subject. I would go ask the classical guys, but I'm not allowed in that part of the forum. I've been booted.

[JtheJazzMan]

Depends on the pickup. Piezo transducers that are close to the strings seem to be the least suitable ie wing pickups.

Piezos that are insulated from the strings by a distance of wood like the full circle and realist work better, the wood obviously mutes undesirable frequencies.

I dropped using a full circle and Im currently using a single stat-b element on the E side.

The arco tone is very natural at low volumes. I even use it with less-traditional chamber groups and the sound is great. Adds a bit of Renaud Garcia Fons tone to stuff like Piazzolla and Granados.

[William Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Don Higdon

Spiro unbowability is not a myth.
OK, "unbowable" is a bit hyperbolic. Of course they can be bowed, but what about the sound?
I've owned 17 basses, from ply to hand carved walnut, and I've put Spiro mittels on every one. Bowed Spiros sounded good on exactly one bass, the Schnitzer walnut, which is in a class (sound and price) of its own. Nevertheless, Bel Cantos sound better. Much. We're playing Mendelssohn's Italian Symphony next week. I can't think of a more inappropriate string than a Spiro.
Some top names play Spiros arco, yes. I view them as I view my walnut bass: the exception that proves the rule.
To my ears, Spiros played arco through an amplifier would make waterboarding unnecessary.
Edit: I forgot to say in my humble opinion.

Don, as always, your opinion (humble or not ) has my greatest respect. "Unbowability" per se is probably not the best way of describing the issue.

Most would agree that Belcantos are a superior arco string, and I certainly do. I think that is particularly true for bassists who play mostly arco. I play pizz and arco, and find Spiros on the whole are better for what I do. On my darker sounding fully carved bass, which sings under the tension of Mittels and a Stark E, they sound different than on other basses I've played.

The only Spiro I do not like is the G, which I substitute out for a Belcanto G because the BC sounds so much better. The other Belcantos (EAD) are for me too muddy for pizz, but the other Spiros just sing, both pizz and arco -- to my ear, in my limited experience, etc. blah blah.

As for their value in waterboarding and the cited difficulties in bowing them amplified (using a mic), these complaints are typical of bassists who try new Spiros straight out of the package and make up their mind then and there. If you let them settle in, perferably for a year or so, they become quite mellow. This mellowness is especially audible in bowing older Spiros. Still brighter than Belcantos, which I think is a good thing, but they lose the sparks and initial brights.

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Depends on the pickup. Piezo transducers that are close to the strings seem to be the least suitable ie wing pickups.

Piezos that are insulated from the strings by a distance of wood like the full circle and realist work better, the wood obviously mutes undesirable frequencies.

I dropped using a full circle and Im currently using a single stat-b element on the E side.

The arco tone is very natural at low volumes. I even use it with less-traditional chamber groups and the sound is great. Adds a bit of Renaud Garcia Fons tone to stuff like Piazzolla and Granados.

I've had similar experiences with the Realist and FC. Now using a Bassbalsereit which is a piezo in a conical cylinder firmly embedded in a hole in the bridge drilled with a cello endpin reamer. Imo a very good spot to insert a piezo pickup. I'm not sure it is the "closeness" to or distance per se from the strings, its seems that what is important is having wood in between the strings and the pickup, as well as the firmness with which the pickup is held in place. Spiros sound natural amplified. Does Renaud Garcia Fons play Spiros?

[TroyK]

I recognize that orchestral players will have needs and preferences for their strings that are beyond my comprehension and recognize that there are a lot of choices for them. I would never suggest that any or all of them should use spirocores.

But for jazz players working through Simandl or who have to play Canon in D before the wedding gig or whatever, they're fine or better. We've been told for years that they are scratchy and unplayable and we needed hybrid strings. Some strings are unbowable because they have nylon wraps or whatever, Spirocores are fine.

If someone likes something else better for their needs, whether they are playing jazz or bluegrass or in a symphony, then that's great. There are lots of choices. We've been warning people off of spirocores for years though because they need to practice with the bow and spirocores are hostile for that, or so we've been saying. Just not true in my experience.

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by William Hoffman

I've had similar experiences with the Realist and FC. Now using a Bassbalsereit which is a piezo in a conical cylinder firmly embedded in a hole in the bridge drilled with a cello endpin reamer. Imo a very good spot to insert a piezo pickup. I'm not sure it is the "closeness" to or distance per se from the strings, its seems that what is important is having wood in between the strings and the pickup, as well as the firmness with which the pickup is held in place. Spiros sound natural amplified. Does Renaud Garcia Fons play Spiros?

Bassbalsereit - Ive been trying to think of that name for ages. I wanted to try one, but count me off the pickup buying bandwagon, and the string bandwagon too for that matter. Yes RGF uses spiros and a flatchromsteel on top.

[William Hoffman]

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Bassbalsereit - Ive been trying to think of that name for ages. I wanted to try one, but count me off the pickup buying bandwagon, and the string bandwagon too for that matter. Yes RGF uses spiros and a flatchromsteel on top.

I'm not on that bandwagon anymore either. Before letting anyone drill a hole in my bridge, I had to be sure. So I played a bass fit with the "Studio" model, and I said "drill, baby" and bought it on the spot and haven't looked back. You gotta hear it to believe...

I wondered about his strings. It always seems the makers of the posted videos cut off the string stockings out of the picture. But if you look at this one about 20 seconds in you see the red Spiro stockings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hSIe4NlvU9g

[Treyzer]

[quote=William Hoffman;10502046]I'm not on that bandwagon anymore either. Before letting anyone drill a hole in my bridge, I had to be sure. So I played a bass fit with the "Studio" model, and I said "drill, baby" and bought it on the spot and haven't looked back. You gotta hear it to believe...

I wondered about his strings. It always seems the makers of the posted videos cut off the string stockings out of the picture. But if you look at this one about 20 seconds in you see the red Spiro stockings./quote]

Bill what happened to the Erhlund pickup? I thought you said you really liked it? I also thought you were into gut strings. What happened to the gut string experiment?

[fdeck]

I've noticed that virtually nobody debates the bow-ability of any string but Spiro's.

Like any other generalization, this one admits to plenty of exceptions and mitigating factors. But is it valid enough to be useful? I think so.

On my bass, Spiro's simply weren't outstanding enough in the pizz department to put up with the "falsing" when playing arco. I've got enough other things to work on with my technique, including my bowing, and life is short.

[lucas vigor]

I started out with the spiros (The ultimate JAZZ string!) and gradually started bowing. Bit by bit, I got better and better. I rarely changed my spiros, so lets say they were about 4 years old by the time I started really using the bow. All along, I knew my technique was that of a beginners (with the bow) and I took that into account when I could'nt get a decent grab, when I heard excessive wolftones, etc...but, I stuck with it. A couple of years later my tone still wasn't that great with the bow. Then I started playing with a local orchestra and realized that not only was my tone quite scratchy, it also was 50% lower in volume then everyone else's. Right here, on this forum, I learned about Bel Cantos. I made the switch and will not look back. 90% of my tone problems went away almost immediately! Now, every note grabs easy. PPP is no problem! Wolftones a thing of the past. I would never use spiros for anything other then pizz again.

Sure, you can bow them. I can also bow on weedwackers (believe it or not)....but for the ultimate in sound and feel, it's the bel cantos that are the gold standard.

[William Hoffman]

Originally Posted by Treyzer

Bill what happened to the Erhlund pickup? I thought you said you really liked it? I also thought you were into gut strings. What happened to the gut string experiment?

Discovery continues, Treyzer. On one bass, guts, Ehrlund. It has a thinner top, lighter wood, and likes the low tension of guts, and I must say the Ehrlund picks up the breathlike sound of the guts very well imho. I've not tried the Ehrlund on the heavier (also carved student model) bass. Spiro Mittels (including a Stark E) are the best string ever on that one, and it is on this bass that I had the Bassbalsereit installed.

Being able to go back and forth between two basses lends insight into each instrument and I find it refines my playing as well. I can't resist experimenting, so on it goes. but at the moment am enjoying the insights into my basses and my own preferences that I have discovered so far...

Getting back to the OP, I think Uncle Toad summed this thread up very nicely a long time ago:

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Yes the idea that Spirocores are not suitable for arco is a myth. They are obviously some people's choice FOR an arco string. Moreover they have some unique characteristics that make them desirable as arco strings for some people.

[William Hoffman]

Originally Posted by lucas vigor

I started out with the spiros (The ultimate JAZZ string!) and gradually started bowing. Bit by bit, I got better and better. I rarely changed my spiros, so lets say they were about 4 years old by the time I started really using the bow. All along, I knew my technique was that of a beginners (with the bow) and I took that into account when I could'nt get a decent grab, when I heard excessive wolftones, etc...but, I stuck with it. A couple of years later my tone still wasn't that great with the bow. Then I started playing with a local orchestra and realized that not only was my tone quite scratchy, it also was 50% lower in volume then everyone else's. Right here, on this forum, I learned about Bel Cantos. I made the switch and will not look back. 90% of my tone problems went away almost immediately! Now, every note grabs easy. PPP is no problem! Wolftones a thing of the past. I would never use spiros for anything other then pizz again...

As a budding arcoist, I can relate to your story. I don't think anyone has said Spiros are "the easiest string to bow". Maybe Belcantos or Evahs are, at least from the point of view of bowing technique requirements. Guts aren't "easy" for me either, but I hear others can play them beautifully. I find Spiros require a special effort to "grab" each note. But when the hair grabs them, they shake my bass like no other string. Add that to the other qualities of the string, and it's a case of whatever blows your skirt up, I guess. Every bass and every bassist is different. Amen.

[Jaromir]

When some bass likes lower tension, the Spiros Weich are the way to go (if one likes Spiros, like I do). These are much easier to bow, compare to the Mittels.