Gut Feel - Thanks (I Hope) Papa T, J Kissel, & Others

[Mark Perna]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

Little bit. Some in the real early days, and then some recently... bad guts on worse rental basses. I just have to wonder what good ones would be like on my good bass.

To be honest, once someone counts off a tune, I pretty much forget about the bass and strings anyway, unless it falls apart.

They'd probably sound amazing. You'll put them on and never want to put the bass down again. I had 4 Gamuts on mine and it was heaven.

Based on what you've posted, I think you and I play in a similar manner so I feel comfortable warning you about the soloing issue. Most of the licks and high altitude stuff I could pull of with ease on steel, I simply couldn't do on gut. The way gut responds and sounds is very different than steel and I had to really change my approach particularly when soloing. Studying Scott Lafaro closely helped a lot. I've found that a lot of Scott's licks don't sound all that good when played on steel but work great on gut.

I remember the first solo I took on gut. Up until the solo, I was having a blast. Fat, deep sound under everyone else. My turn. I run up the neck and...nothing. I tripped all over myself trying to play like I do on steel. Forget vibrato, slides or any of the other little things you do with the note while soloing to impart your personality. None of it comes across. By the end of the gig, I'd figured out a few things to do and was playing decent solos maybe 50% of the time. Maybe 10% of the time, I'd completely crash and burn and the other 40% were stinko to mediocre. I'm used to a bit higher percentage of good solos when playing steel--like most of the time. Even after a few months, my average didn't go up that much although crashing and burning became less frequent. After a while I had to go back to steel just to routinely play a good solo. Unfortunately, after gut, steel felt like playing guitar strings they were so thin and thin sounding.

Playing good gut while comping though is one of life's great pleasures. I think need to buy another bass and dedicate it to gut playing.

mark

[Marcus Johnson]

I think Scott messed up the whole equation for the rest of us mere mortals.

I hear what you're saying. It seems that gut players need to embrace the "drummer" side more... the rhythmic aspect... at the expense of the "vocal" aspect to a degree. I really don't do the "toothless and slippery" giant fretless stuff much anyway. I really had a lot of fun blowing through "Tricotism" on my student's gut strung bass recently. But I might fall out of love just as fast on the bandstand.

That was a great quick view of the gut soloing experience you just posted, BTW.

Okay... so how about this... one bass, one set of old Spiros, one set of Gamuts, some spare time, and a string winder mounted on a power drill?...

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

Okay... so how about this... one bass, one set of old Spiros, one set of Gamuts, some spare time, and a string winder mounted on a power drill?...

You looking in the window of my house?

[Marcus Johnson]

Nope, I'm snufflin' through your string drawer.

[Uncletoad]

Make sure the vibrator is off before you shut the drawer. I'll catch hell if the batteries are dead.

[Marcus Johnson]

Hehe.. you sick.

It's all kind of rhetorical for me. I just got off the phone with Les DeMerle, and he was describing what he wants from me on his upcoming recording, which is what most bandleaders want.. that "Ray Brown sound". Coincidentally, I was listening to Jimmy Rowles and Ray on those duo things they did at the time. Big, giant, solid, Spiro Ray stuff. So in the interest of paying the mortgage, I guess my gut explorations will have to wait.

There's another thing that bears repeating to myself, as I am now listening to PC, playing guts, on my radio...

"HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, BETTER THAN YOU. ANY ATTEMPT TO TRY TO EMULATE HIM THROUGH STRING CHOICES WILL BE FUTILE."

Probably better to just stack the deck in my favor.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

"HE IS, AND ALWAYS WILL BE, BETTER THAN YOU. ANY ATTEMPT TO TRY TO EMULATE HIM THROUGH STRING CHOICES WILL BE FUTILE."

[Mark Perna]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

I think Scott messed up the whole equation for the rest of us mere mortals.

I hear what you're saying. It seems that gut players need to embrace the "drummer" side more... the rhythmic aspect... at the expense of the "vocal" aspect to a degree. I really don't do the "toothless and slippery" giant fretless stuff much anyway.

Agreed on Scott. He must have come from another planet or something. He really didn't die in the crash, he was just called home...

And you nailed it with the drummer comment. Playing on gut up top is a lot like playing tuned percussion because you can't really do much with the note after the attack. I'm not much for the giant fretless thing either but I didn't realize how much I goofed with the notes with my left hand until I couldn't do it anymore.

mark

[candyman]

Good morning all,
Not to get too far off the thread....but I thought I would relay a story a co-worker told me about 20 years ago. His name was Al Dwyer (I'm guessing that was his last name), anyway he said he grew up with Scott Lafaro in a small N.Y. town. At the time I was playing slab and had never heard of Lafaro. But Al told me he was drinking in a small pub. and in came Scott, they talked for a little while and then Scott left. A few hours later Scott was killed in that terrible crash. Life is precious.....play it like you mean it..gut or steel.

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by candyman

.... Not to get too far off the thread....but I thought I would relay a story ..... A few hours later Scott was killed in that terrible crash. Life is precious.....play it like you mean it ....

There is no way that is "off thread" ..... "Play It Like You Mean It" .... Inspirational ... Man, there otta be a bumper sticker for that.

Thanks for the Essential Reminder CandyMan ... Best Wishes To You ..... Merry Christmas.

P.S. I am still blown away by that Kay "extreme make-over" lefty bass that you sold to Tejano. The Craftsmen / Arteeests involved in that project are to be complimented (or maybe .... have their "Luthier's Licenses" checked for going to that much trouble on a barnyard Kay ... that was soooo cooool !)

[candyman]

Thanks Bob!
Sometimes I find myself at gigs, just going through the motions. I have to remind myself that just getting by isn't how I want to spend my time .
Thanks so much for the complement on the old Kay, Pete Langdell did a remarkable job bringing her back from the edge. I was very fortunate to have Tejano contact me about buying her. He was able to spend the night at my house after driving from Va. to pick her up. We had a nice dinner and got some great conversation in over roasted chicken. Sad to see her go, but she's gone to a great home.
Best wish to all for a wonderful Holiday!
Kirk

[superman]

Does anyone know the gage for Damians A&E wrapped guts???
Also I hope this "new" wraphe has is not what is known as a "ground wound",that type of winding is alful, The Golden Spirals A&E
from back in the 80s,had the best winding,it looks more like stainless or something,,its not silver., they were very good strings,they latter went to this ground winding then stoped makeing A&E all together. I only wish D'Addario,,would at least tell us where these were made,I'm sure they had them made by someone eles.

[juuzek]

http://damianstrings.com/doublebass.htm
He has a conversion program on his page as well that translates his gauging system to inches or millimeters:
http://damianstrings.com/calc.htm

The wound silver strings have that 'round wound' feel to them.

[superman]

I went and took measurments of several brands of guts I have in my collection,,I also listed the gage that was on package,if it had one

NOS Labellas 60s vintage
G .080,,,gage 43
D .105
A .095 wound
E .125 wound
NOS Art tones, 50s vintage
G .075,,,gage 43
D .095,,,gage52
A .100,,,gage54wound
E .125,,,gage68wound
NOS Nutones,,60s vintage
G .085
D .095
A .100wound
E .125wound
NOS Eudoxas,60s,before they changed them to flat winding
G ..075,,,gage42
D .105,,,gage 53
A missing,
E .135,,,gage 67 wound

Labellas,new type
G .070
D .090
A .100 wound
E .125 wound
Golden Spirals,80s
A .095 wound
E .130 Wound
Gotz mediums
G .065
D .095
A .085 wound
E .120 wound
Gotz heavy
G .080
D .100
Gamut rewraped
A older labella .100,,,rewraped,,.085,,winding wire used was much smaller than original,,resulted in loss
E older labella .125,,,rewraped ,,,.125, wire used here same as original
I really like the Gotz heavys they were from Hammond Ashley, I got them back in the late 90s,,theyr just as good as gamuts
and a lot less $$ ,wish I could find them still.
I was having gamut rewrap A&Es for me but he started useing smaller wire and the last few I had done had already loosend up even before I put them on,,so I'm not all that crazy about gamuts wraped strings,,

[MT Spaces]

As The World Turns ....
Contrary to my original plan .... I bailed out on the wound gut A & E strings for my '40 Kay O-1. At this point I don't want to think about the gut shrinking away from windings in the dry climate of Montana. I don't have that fairly constant marine enviro like Jeff Kissel and his DD wound strings. Adrian Cho said it in the Gamuts thread:

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

One thing I am sure of is that when it is dry, the gut core shrinks creating space between the core and the windings. At least that's what happened with the Pirastro guts. That's why people would do things like use oil or boil the strings to try and get the moisture into them again.

Both Damian Dlugolecki and Dan Larson were very responsive to the stupid questions in my e-mails.
DD (in Portland, Oregon area) said: "Montana is indeed too dry in the winter for wound basses and the sound of the G and D would suffer from lack of moisture because the gut requires a certain level of moisture to activate the collagen in the strings which make them elastic."
DL (in Minnesota) said: "This time of year is a good one for making the wound strings. We, also, are very dry which helps with the buzzing problem. It is possible that the string will swell in the summer and then shrink again in the winter. Some people have a problem with this and some don't."

Maybe the moral of the story to to buy wound guts from a guy who makes them in a climate / humidity location that most matches where you are going to play. Whatever ... for now I am staying away from the wound guts.

I also asked both guys about plain gut A. I have heard from some folks not to waste my time with plain gut A and that there are no good notes associated with it ... just THUD. I know Joe Sorren here at TB uses a Gamut Pistoy plain A and he said it was great.

So I asked the experts. DD said: "I only have one A1 in stock and it is a bit too large for this set (with G gauge 44 and D gauge 55). And I don't think you would find it agreeable to play."
DL said: "Quite a few players are going over to the plain gut, Pistoy A-3 string. We are working on orders for three of them at the moment. I like the string a lot. One nice thing is that the winding / buzzing problem never comes up. Another nice thing is that the strings last for years and years, and sound better as they get older. As to tone, it is very full and responsive, but you don't get a lot of upper partial sound, so the tone is supported almost completely by the fundamental of each note. If you want your bass to supply the long sound waves that move the air in a room, then gut, and the gut A-3, is a good choice. If you want a bright, more cello-like sound, then gut might not be the best choice."

Maybe if I get any tax $$ back I will pony up for the Gamut Pistoy plain A. Woof ... it's damn big ( 0.15" or 3.8 mm in "light" gauge) and expensive (about 1.5 sets in Spiro-type currency). If any of you TBers are the ones buying those plain A Pistoys, please report in after you break them in.

For now I got some new Garbo regular A & E strings. Yesterday, even though they were only on the bass for a couple hours and still stretching ... they were good right out of the chute. Better pizzz (only) sound and more "gut-like" with that silkworm spit core and not so "plastic" sounding (what the heck is "perlon" anyway?). The low B on both strings sounds real nice. Also more volume and less darkness than the nicely broken in Doms A & E that were on there. Also better to my ear than SS and Perm A & E strings I had previously tried out. The Garbos seem to match the well-used SS G & D strings that I have on right now.

But now .... it's on to Phase II of the diabolical plan .... I ordered the Gamut G & D Pistoy varnished mediums. Won't get them until next week ... Dan Larson checked his stock and had the D but not the G. He has to go into the back room with his buddies and twist one . I'm still not sure why I'm getting the more expensive super-twisty Pistoys ... my curiousity has got the best of me. I guess my aging wrists, hands, and fingers are looking forward to playing something real supple and flexible with a nice sound for a change. Not to mention that the pictures (hubba, hubba) of the Pistoys on the website are really attractive (for sheep innards) .... nice symmetrical candy cane stripe of clearish gut spiralling around the string. Sorry .... I'm easily entertained by purty pictures. If this combination of strings doesn't make Dottie The Kay sound good (and yes I know I need to practice and improve my techniques) .... then it time to sell 'er and buy the Cleveland. Thanks for reading ... over and out for now.

P.S. Thanks to Mike Ramsey, SuperMan Kent, and Bobby King for P.M.'s. Real helpful Gentlemen.

[M Ramsey]

Originally Posted by Bob Knebel

As The World Turns ...

Maybe the moral of the story to to buy wound guts from a guy who makes them in a climate / humidity location that most matches where you are going to play. Whatever ... for now I am staying away from the wound guts.

I also asked both guys about plain gut A. I have heard from some folks not to waste my time with plain gut A and that there are no good notes associated with it ... just THUD. I know Joe Sorren here at TB uses a Gamut Pistoy plain A and he said it was great.

For now I got some new Garbo regular A & E strings. Yesterday, even though they were only on the bass for a couple hours and still stretching ... they were good right out of the chute. Better pizzz (only) sound and more "gut-like" with that silkworm spit core and not so "plastic" sounding (what the heck is "perlon" anyway?). The low B on both strings sounds real nice. Also more volume and less darkness than the nicely broken in Doms A & E that were on there. Also better to my ear than SS and Perm A & E strings I had previously tried out. The Garbos seem to match the well-used SS G & D strings that I have on right now.

P.S. Thanks to Mike Ramsey, SuperMan Kent, and Bobby King for P.M.'s. Real helpful Gentlemen.

Glad I could help contribute to the madness.

Here in the humidity laden southeast (well, used to be anyway, we're in the worst drought) I'm doing OK with the Red-O-Ray wound guts on bottom. BUT, that's not my everyday bass. I only use it to record with and to play a few dates when I'm going to be in a controlled environment and the outside weather is going to be fairly stable as well.

If I had one bass to play all the time and wanted to experiment with gut, I think it would only be for the top 2 strings and I would use Garbos for the E & A.

Last February, Kent and myself tried some basses that Jerry Fretwell had at SPBGMA. There was one that was strung with guts all the way across and the bottom strings were plain gut as well. They were extremely big and to us, they had a thud, with not much in the way of the fundamental of the note trying to be played. More percussive than musical (no slam on drummers). That was my first experience with a plain E or A string and I wasn't impressed.

Press on soldier, in your quest to pull the sword from the stone!

[superman]

Good deal Bob,,I thnk you'll like the garbos,,I like them for A&E but the G&D just does'nt do much for me,,,I've been messin with of all things helicore arcos for A&E,,they are not near as bright as most helicores,,and tenision is so far ok,,I'll let you know more after Fridays Opry spot,,I'm gona give them a try then,,Kent

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by superman

....I'll let you know more after Fridays Opry spot,,I'm gona give them a try then,,Kent

Man i wish i could be there to hear you and your Helicore A & E experiment in person . Looks like your playing with Marty Stuart ... All Right. Let's see .... if I hit the road tonite .... and drive straight through .... maybe I can be at The Ryman by Friday . Heck I bet you could play clothesline A & E and sound pretty good . Gonna play your drum attachment? For those readers who haven't seen Kent's drum gizmo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xUXB8-vyFOk .

Thanks for the info on gut string gauges .... that info went into my decision on the Gamut strings I ordered. I was wondering about the Garbo G & D and almost got those instead of gut but I just have to hear real gut strings on my bass. I know you recommended the Goetz heavies but I never did hear back from Volker Nahrmann about the gauge of the Goetz gut G & D he carries .... I couldn't wait so I ordered the Gamuts. Have a good one at the Grand Ole !