Gut strings for orchestral needs

[Dr Rod]

Have you ever heard an old recording of the Berlin Phil with Furtwaengler? ......Well, massive bass. The same with an old recording of Shostakovitch 5 with New York Phil in the 60's, just massive.

Now, they were both using gut strings at the time, and they didn't do close miking. I have tried in my lifetime some gut strings on my 5 string bass (LaBella, Pirastro (I think Eudoxa medium), NoName, etc...) and the sound has always been extremely disappointing: no attack, soft, scratchy.

There are many famous violinists, violists and cellists that use nothing but gut (flat wound for the most part). However there seems to be almost no serious bass player using them (to my knowledge). I seem to remember that maybe Tim Cobb or Tim Pitts (sorry) used gut, but I am really not sure.

Any info? experiences? comments?

[jallenbass]

Tim Pitts tried Olivs or Eudoxas in the late 80's but abandoned them. I don't know if he tried them since then.

Around 1960 orchestra players started converting to steel so that is likely what the NY Phil using.

I have no idea about mic techniques of the 1st half of the 20th century but it seems possible to move them closer to the basses to boost that frequency.

[chipsas]

"massive bass"... well, sometimes it depends on your technique (especially with bow) . i heard playing with the same bass and strings 3 musicians, and they all sounded different..! 1.- sounded soft and sweet.. 2 - massive....., but very harsh , 3. i just couldn't hear him clear.. 'course his arco technique is not really so good, and have no attack.. so, just 1 bass (with thomastik strings) , but sound is so different..
just a thought..
i heard that gamut strings are very good, if you want plain gut..
eudoxa/oliv are my favorite strings.. and i have no problem with attack , and they sound really massive enough..! but it depends on your bass a lot though..
if your DB have a light , soft sound.. then, you just can't expect a very massive sound.
by the way, "records" and "live" - are different things...

[Dr Rod]

Actually Orin O'Brian told me that they were using guts at the time at the NY phil. But you might be right about the recording techniques. It's possible that in the 60's they had already started using multiple mikes and mixing consoles etc...

In the early 40's the Berlin Phil was miked with only one mike, later on 3 mikes were used. No close miking.

[jneuman]

Gut strings can sound quiet when you play by yourself, but the sound is much bigger out front. Their is something about the harmonics of the bowed gut string that provides a pressence in the lower end that carries well. Also, light gut strings don't excite the bridge in the same way so you don't hear as much of the strings sound bouncing back at you when you are right on top of the bass. I'm using Olivs right now for orchestra, and tuning problems aside, I think they have the best sound of any orchestral string available today. Several folks have made unsolicited favaorable comments on my tone since I made the change. I was using flexocor's before. To me the Olivs seem to blend well with the section too. They are a good crossover string that combines the best qulities of steel and gut.
-Jon

[Silversorcerer]

Dr Rod: When you were experimenting with gut on your 5-string, were you using wound guts for the low strings also? Was your 5-string strung with the low B?

Chipsas and Jneuman: What do you use for E and A strings? Are these wound guts that you are talking about in the previous posts?

I am curious about using guts on my five string and I want something that can sound good with the bow.

[Dr Rod]

Dear Silversorcerer

Back then, the 5th string was so expensive that I didn't buy it. I just bought the 4 string set (all steel wound),and I didn't keep them on for more than a few weeks. I always kept the steel core 5th string.

The only gut 5th string I have seen is the silver wound Eudoxa.


Be careful, 5 string basses have typically less clearance between strings and gut strings need A LOT of clearance, they are thicker and they vibrate very widely.

[Dr Rod]

Can anyone give an opinion on the sonic difference between the Steel wound Olivs and the silver wound Eudoxas?

If anybody here has a silver dollar, drop it on the floor and listen how loud those things are. I would think that a silver wound string could be sonically very interesting.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

Dear Silversorcerer

Back then, the 5th string was so expensive that I didn't buy it. I just bought the 4 string set and I didn't keep them on for more than a few weeks. I always kept the steel 5th string.

Be careful, 5 string basses have typically less clearance between strings and gut strings need A LOT of clearance, they are thicker and they vibrate very widely.

That did occur to me as a potential problem. I have a little more clearance between G, D, & A than A, E, B and my FB radius is about 75mm. So if I really want that sound, then the FB and bridge might need a tighter radius. I have plenty of C bout clearance for the bow.

It seems that you didn't really like the guts. What are your preferences for 5-string config? Do higher tension strings help with the clearance issues? I'm currently using Helicore light tension Orchestras with a 43" mensur. It's what came on the bass so I'm looking to explore a different sound, not that the helicores are bad, but I've just not really experimented with the other voices this instrument might have in it and most of the jazz pizz that I really love from the 50's and early 60's was played on gut;- but I also love the sound of the instrument played arco, so it's important that the gut I try be something that works for both. I use a german bow right with white hair usually with Oak rosin, Carlsson, or Pops.

[jneuman]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Chipsas and Jneuman: What do you use for E and A strings? Are these wound guts that you are talking about in the previous posts?

I am curious about using guts on my five string and I want something that can sound good with the bow.

I have used both silverplated wirewound and flat steel wound (Oliv's). The Olivs bow better than most steel strings I've tried and sound great for old time pizz styles. The catch is the price.
-Jon

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by jneuman

I have used both silverplated wirewound and flat steel wound (Oliv's). The Olivs bow better than most steel strings I've tried and sound great for old time pizz styles. The catch is the price.
-Jon

Thanks much for the responses. I've been looking at the Gamut Lyon and Pistoy Strings and the Damian D. strings as well as the Olivs, trying to find the best strategy. Gamut will rewrap their strings for a fee that is less than half the cost of a new string. I suppose I should start with the D&G and then maybe pick the others up one at a time?? I may leave the steel BB on there. The gut one would have to be a truly gargantuan string. Would it be better to switch the others over all at once? Any ideas on which gauges I should try to get at least as much tension as the helicore light tensions?

[chipsas]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Dr Rod: When you were experimenting with gut on your 5-string, were you using wound guts for the low strings also? Was your 5-string strung with the low B?

Chipsas and Jneuman: What do you use for E and A strings? Are these wound guts that you are talking about in the previous posts?

I am curious about using guts on my five string and I want something that can sound good with the bow.

yep..
i use G,D oliv, and A,E eudoxa..
as for me, they are best gut (wound) strings for arco..and pizz.. very warm and full tone, and very good articulation with bow....

[chipsas]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

Can anyone give an opinion on the sonic difference between the Steel wound Olivs and the silver wound Eudoxas?

If anybody here has a silver dollar, drop it on the floor and listen how loud those things are. I would think that a silver wound string could be sonically very interesting.

eudoxa/oliv....
that is pretty much the same thing,
olivs- just a little warmer, darker and easier to play on G and D, but eudoxas have better articulation on bottom (A and E), clear sound. oliv G,D tone is a bit more melow compared to eudoxa G,D.

[Dr Rod]

Dear Chipsas and Silversorcerer

As the thread goes on I have come to realize that you guys are mainly pizz bassists, am I correct? I think my advice will actually not mean anything to you guys because our needs (including our arco needs) are just very different.

I will however comment on a few things that I hope will help.

Silversorcerer, you say you have more clearance between g and d than in the lower strings? This is just typical, violin makers just mesure equallly from the center of the strings without taking the thickness and oscillation of the lower strings into consideration. This has been a lifelong battle for me. I am sorry that the strings that need the most clearance have the least on your bass. IMHO a greater radius will not help unless you do absolutely no orchestral bowing. A greater radius will make the curve "flatter" and especially on a 5 string bass you could end up playing 3 strings at once on your fortissimos.
I really think you should try the tomastik spirocore stark (heavy gauge) for the 5 low B.

Chipsas, do you have any second hand Eudoxas you want to sell?

[chipsas]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

Dear Chipsas and Silversorcerer

As the thread goes on I have come to realize that you guys are mainly pizz bassists, am I correct? I think my advice will actually not mean anything to you guys because our needs (including our arco needs) are just very different.

i play mostly arco (classical) ... chamber, symphony orchestra.., solo, etc...
and just sometimes jazz, swing, R&B....

yes i do have eudoxa's to sell.., i have 1 set used for about 5-6 weeks.. and i got 2 absolutely new eudoxa sets.. but i don't really think i want to sell the whole new sets.. maybe just G and D..-)

[Dr Rod]

Thanks, I will send you a private message.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by Dr Rod

Dear Chipsas and Silversorcerer

As the thread goes on I have come to realize that you guys are mainly pizz bassists, am I correct? I think my advice will actually not mean anything to you guys because our needs (including our arco needs) are just very different.

I will however comment on a few things that I hope will help.

Silversorcerer, you say you have more clearance between g and d than in the lower strings? This is just typical, violin makers just mesure equallly from the center of the strings without taking the thickness and oscillation of the lower strings into consideration. This has been a lifelong battle for me. I am sorry that the strings that need the most clearance have the least on your bass. IMHO a greater radius will not help unless you do absolutely no orchestral bowing. A greater radius will make the curve "flatter" and especially on a 5 string bass you could end up playing 3 strings at once on your fortissimos.
I really think you should try the tomastik spirocore stark (heavy gauge) for the 5 low B.

Chipsas, do you have any second hand Eudoxas you want to sell?

Thanks for all again, Doc. I have actually just altered what was an even more pizz. type original set-up than what I have now. The strings were at 7/8" centers! I recut a new bridge and opened up the spacing to 1" and sort of faked the E string over a hair and the B as well. There is still more clearance on the G, D, side primarily due to the lower string heights for those strings. What I said above was not a "greater" FB and bridge radius, but a "tighter" or smaller radius that would be more arched. I could see even just changing the FB and bridge radius on the bass side opening the string spacing to 15/16 of space regardless of center. My old plywood 4-string bass was spaced that way at both the nut and the bridge, but also had a bevel under the E. When I play live now, I play mostly pizz., but the ratio seems to be progressing toward arco, and I eventually want to do classical or baroque work as well as I become more experienced.

I have read recommendations for the Spiro Stark B before and will definitely keep that in mind. How different in sound and tension will that be from the Helicore B? I'm happy with tension of the current strings (helicore light) but I believe the B is a medium gauge because I only saw one gauge for that string listed by D'addario.

[Dr Rod]

Silversorcerer,

I used to be a jazzer, and am a "classical only" bassist now. So I understand your leaning towards baroque etc...a word of warning though, there is no work, or rather no money for the work. You probably know that already.

If you like the medium tension of your helicore 5th string, you might want to stick to it, helicores are fantastic strings. The spirocore stark has much higher tension and a loud thumpy sound, but you have to work it, and so do your calluses. Now that I think of it, it may not match your light helicores very well. It's a great string for bowing but you will need a lot of rosin to move it, especially while it's being broken in. What kind of sound are you looking for?

[Silversorcerer]

I've been listening to a good bit of Charles Mingus. Also the sound Paul Chambers has on Blues and the Abstract Truth. I know some of that has to do with how it was recorded, but in the 50's it most likely was pretty live. Some monaural PC that I have (Bass on Top?) has the same kind of sound, but you can tell that it was recorded quite differently.

As far as the arco sound for jazz, that buzzy sound that Slam Stewart gets in the late 30's is something I want to work toward.

I suppose I could most accurately say beyond that I don't really know what I'm looking for except to explore a different possibility for this instrument. I'm not unhappy with the Helicores:- I like the Orchestras better than the Hybrids I had on my ply bass, but I sometimes feel that the medium tension helicores might be interesting to try, but I lean heavily toward trying gut out next, because it's the sound that I've been hearing.

I have a friend who is a lutenist. He actually makes pretty good money when he performs Baroque or Renaissance even, but it is usually in conjunction with Shakespeare or other period drama performances or festivals. Learning the music and about those instruments interests me more than the money. There is a baroque ensemble in Atlanta that performs several concerts per year.

[Jeremy Allen]

*ahem*
I took some lessons with John Hood, who plays in the Philadelphia Orchestra, and he commented to me that he was soon going to switch back to Olivs from the Original Flatchromes he was using. I expressed some suprise, and he said that the Olivs are the fattest sounding strings of all, great under the bow, and that the only reason he doesn't use them more is because of the tuning issues.
There, that's back on the original topic.