Gut strings for orchestral needs

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I heard the great Dutch improviser Wilbert De Joode last week, who does wonderful things on his tiny John Lott bass with gut strings.
He really sounded great and the gut was a big part of it.

How tiny is that Lott? All the Lott Basses I have seen and know about are large 3/4-7/8ths sized Basses. This includes the ones he made for others like Dodd and S.A.Forster.

[damonsmith]

It is "chamber bass", Maybe even 1/2 size. There are two, which were always together. Barry Guy had both, now these two Dutch guys have them, Ernst Glerum and Wilbert. I have actually heard both and they sound incredible.
You can see pics of it here:
http://images.google.com/images?clie...=1&sa=N&tab=wi

And here is Glerums:
http://www.draaiomjeoren.com/fotos/fotos250106.html

Barry had them strung A to C, but I think these guys tune them E to G.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

It is "chamber bass", Maybe even 1/2 size. There are two, which were always together. Barry Guy had both, now these two Dutch guys have them, Ernst Glerum and Wilbert. I have actually heard both and they sound incredible.
You can see pics of it here:
http://images.google.com/images?clie...=1&sa=N&tab=wi

And here is Glerums:
http://www.draaiomjeoren.com/fotos/fotos250106.html

Barry had them strung A to C, but I think these guys tune them E to G.

Interesting. If these are actually Lott's, they are the first without Violin corners I have seen. Do you know if these are confirmed labeled, branded, pedigreed Lott Chamber Basses or just attributed to him?

I have seen a few Cello shape English Basses from Forster, Gilkes (mine), Kennedy, Dodd and even Wamsley. Another one by a name I can't recall now as well. A few I have seen that I first thought might be English were actually German. It is important to know that a few Cello model Basses were made by the Germans as well possibly copying the English.

Gut strings would make sense as these smaller ones were made specifically for chamber music which was the 'high society' flavor of the day when the classical works which were then new music starting hitting the concert stage with the larger orchestras.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Interesting. If these are actually Lott's, they are the first without Violin corners I have seen. Do you know if these are confirmed labeled, branded, pedigreed Lott Chamber Basses or just attributed to him?

I have seen a few Cello shape English Basses from Forster, Gilkes (mine), Kennedy, Dodd and even Wamsley. Another one by a name I can't recall now as well. A few I have seen that I first thought might be English were actually German. It is important to know that a few Cello model Basses were made by the Germans as well possibly copying the English.

Gut strings would make sense as these smaller ones were made specifically for chamber music which was the 'high society' flavor of the day when the classical works which were then new music starting hitting the concert stage with the larger orchestras.

I don't know if they are confirmed. That would make them pretty pricey wouldn't it? I think Wilbert said Lott only made this pair, and that the rest were big orchestral basses.
The times I have heard them, they were both unamplified and had huge sound you would not expect and really projected.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

I don't know if they are confirmed. That would make them pretty pricey wouldn't it? I think Wilbert said Lott only made this pair, and that the rest were big orchestral basses.
The times I have heard them, they were both unamplified and had huge sound you would not expect and really projected.

Huge sound by themselves is one thing. Depth is another and hearing it in a section with an Orchestra is another as well.

They look like nice Basses what ever they are.

[Mr.Phil]

Skip the Lenzner Guts if you want mainly arco. I had them a while ago and although the are great for jazz, they're just a little thin and nasal under the bow. Just my thoughts.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

So, for Bowing, we are back to two choices;

http://www.gamutstrings.com/
http://www.damianstrings.com/

Also, to be clear do you guys all agree that what LaBella has is not as good for bowing?

[Buzz Grim]

Concerning the known problem of winding seperation on flat wound gut or synthetic cores.
I would bet that most seperation is caused by the winding hanging up (or at least enough to not keeping up with the core movement) in either the bridge slot or the nut slot.
There could be a technical solution to this.
I think it was Super Sensitive Sensicore (Perlon core) strings that used to ship with small curved metal saddles that went between the string and the bridge slot.I don't know if they worked or not.

Maybe getting Olivs to work would require a modification to the traditional design or materials for the nut and bridge slots to eliminate as much friction as possible.
Roller wheels or solid graphite inserts at the string bearing points?

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

Also, to be clear do you guys all agree that what LaBella has is not as good for bowing?

I've never played them on a really good bass, but I don't sense that they would be too great for bowing on any bass. They are pretty uninspiring, and very diffuse sounding.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

So, for Bowing, we are back to two choices;

http://www.gamutstrings.com/
http://www.damianstrings.com/

Also, to be clear do you guys all agree that what LaBella has is not as good for bowing?

The LaBella guts I had did not sound like professional instrument strings to me.

fwiw I still use LaBella Flatwound EB strings exclusively on most of my basses.

[ctxbass]

Originally Posted by damonsmith

So, you use strings known to have sketchy intonation and then compound it by not practicing much with the bow? Not to be harsh, but it sounds like you need to take your own advice in your last sentence there.

I do get the impression many gut users are hiding technical flaws behind the fuzzy sound.
My feeling is that gut requires even more arco/technical practice to play well.

I heard the great Dutch improvisor Wilbert De Joode last week, who does wonderful things on his tiny John Lott bass with gut strings.
He really sounded great and the gut was a big part of it.

I don't agree with the "strings known to have sketchy intonation" and "fuzzy sound" comments. Gut strings do have a different sound than steel strings and it may require a more concentrated form of listening, but once your ear adjusts and becomes accustomed to the sound, intonation should be no more problematic than steel strings (barring the gut strings themselves changing pitch due to fluctuations in temperature and humidity).
I have a good ear and have no problem hearing when I'm out of tune playing pizz. I should play arco only to hear that wretched note even longer? Maybe that is why I gave up violin 40 years ago!

[ctxbass]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

fwiw I still use LaBella Flatwound EB strings exclusively on most of my basses.

0760Ms? I keep those on my 61 P bass.
I can't really stand a thinner G.
oops. Wrong forum for this kind of banter

[TimoMetzemakers]

Originally Posted by KSB - Ken Smith

So, for Bowing, we are back to two choices;

http://www.gamutstrings.com/
http://www.damianstrings.com/

Perhaps you could add Pirastro Chordas to the list. They're very popular here in Europe with the baroque/early music crowd. For example, the whole bass section of the Orchestre des Champs-Elysées uses them.

[Jason Sypher]

"I would bet that most seperation is caused by the winding hanging up (or at least enough to not keeping up with the core movement) in either the bridge slot or the nut slot."

Hey Kevin,
This was not my problem when I played on the Olivs. They are a nice string but I found that certain notes (I guess they are notes that I played a lot) the winding would start to loosen and develop a snag.

And hey Ken, I'm getting a kick out of you looking to save money on your gut strings when you own some of the nicest basses of anyone on the forum. You and those great basses deserve the best strings! My advice is to get some Dlugolecki's and be done with it! I believe they are a tad better than the Gamut's but La Bella's are out of the question for you mister. I agree with Timo about the Chordas. I still use their G string for it's uniformity, guage and tone. Here is something noone is talking about when it comes to guts, they last forever! And I think the get better with time (more stable in sound and tuning) I look forward to hearing how your gut dilemma all works out.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Me? Looking to save money? Where did I say or imply that? True, I would like to know what's best before buying but I never said I wanted to save money on the strings themselves!

Oh the Chorda, are these regular Gut G/D, Gut Wound A/E?

If the Chorda's are the regular Gut Strings how do they compare with the Dlugolecki's and Gamut's?

If you were playing in an Orchestra which set would you put on your Bass and why?

Also on the comment "they last forever", I heard a two mentions of wearing thru the area most often plucked (on the G?). Do you carry spare strings around like one does with steel in an emergency or go with faith and take your chances?

[Jason Sypher]

I think the Chorda G is a beautiful string, completely smooth and very nicely guaged for my 7/8ths bass. The D is too big I think and I didn't care for it. The Chorda A and E are wound and I have not tried them (perhaps I should but i'm wary of the roundwound feel). Of course, lasts forever is an exaggeration but I have had my guts on for over two years now and they are perfect. As far as pizz wear, that probably is a personal thing based on body chemistry (sweat) and attack. I see no difference in wear on any part of my strings. I don't play in an orchestra but I can imagine you are looking for power so I would probably get the Dlugolecki's in a med. light to med. guage. For the E and A, god only knows, probably your favorite orchestra steels or some roundwounds if that doesn't freak you out. I guess I might have read you wrong on the money issue, and of course I was just amusing myself with the thought.
I guess if I knew there were excellent custom strings available I wouldn't even be asking about La Bella's. But that assumes you've been following these gut travails all along. Good luck, I'll be interested to see what you find in going gut.

[juuzek]

Thats a good question that I has looking to have answered on the 'durability...' thread a few weeks ago. I heard conflicting sides of 'lasting forever' [which I was hoping for] and breakage/wear at the heavy pizz section of the string.
I think the answer is easy: have a spare. Adrian said it best with 'it the price you pay for doing business' with gut. Its a little hard to justify the expense, but its worth it, for sure.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Well, I have read the Threads here and there but not to ant intense degree. On the wear, let me point out that on Bowed Strings the attack is softer with a sustained note depending on the music. On Pizz, Jazz or other, the string might be hit harder at first but with a quicker decay of the fundamental note. The Pizz and Arco attacks are completely different to a String. Sort of like a tug of war. I guess a guy who gigs both in Orchestra and Jazz with make that strings shake every which way and his needs might be more demanding than just one or the other. Still, a person wants what works bets for him, usually.

I used the LaBella Guts on my Bisiach Bass for a short while over a year ago and thought they were nice Strings. What did I compare them to? Old memories, that's all. I spoke yesterday with Damian on the phone (nice guy by the way) and he said he would recommend polished nickel silver for the A/E strings for Orchestra.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

My bad. I reported earlier that LaBella was importing the Gut strings. This was a misunderstanding. They are 'importing' the Gut material but making the Strings in-house as they always have.

I have some more samples coming from them shortly as well. Historically speaking I have been told in the past that the ancestors of E&O Mari (LaBella) started making Gut Strings in Italy over 400 years ago.

I will report in when I try the next set which might be something different than I have used before from them. They also have experimented with a Gut wrapped flat wound similar to the Olivs.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by ctxbass

I don't agree with the "strings known to have sketchy intonation" and "fuzzy sound" comments. Gut strings do have a different sound than steel strings and it may require a more concentrated form of listening, but once your ear adjusts and becomes accustomed to the sound, intonation should be no more problematic than steel strings (barring the gut strings themselves changing pitch due to fluctuations in temperature and humidity).
I have a good ear and have no problem hearing when I'm out of tune playing pizz. I should play arco only to hear that wretched note even longer? Maybe that is why I gave up violin 40 years ago!

Well, it is probably for another thread, but the party line is practicing arco no matter what you play for a reason. We don't REALLY hear the note when we play pizz as it gets clouded with overtones pretty quickly.
Unless you are the one in a million that does not apply to, my educated guess is you would get a serious reality check with a bow and a chromatic tuner.
By sketchiness I meant the fluctuations in the strings themselves.
That "good ear" business only goes so far, I am willing to bet most of us have good ears. Even with a good ear, good positions and intensive arco practice great players will still play out tune once and a while, drop any one of those and chances increase.