Gut Volume vs Non-Gut...

[rusag2]

Ok, I'll be happy to show off my ignorance to everyone. Look! Here it is---->>>

I'm trying to compile a GENERAL list of Gut attributes as opposed to steel and synthetic.

I'm looking mostly at pizz for bluegrass and I want to figure out my best bet.

From what I understand, gut strings tend to have more "punch" and a faster decay (meaning little to no sustain) as opposed to steel. Also, gut would tend to have a more "traditional" tone, especially when compared to some of the early bluegrass recordings, often made with gut setups.

But...what I don't know is...which is louder...initial attack volume....pure DB when you first release the string...which is more likely to cut through to back of the room?

Right now, I'm playing Innovation Super Silvers which are marketed as sort of a "synthetic gut" or a "gut substitute." I like them very much but I would like to get a touch more punch.

There. Now you see me in all my ignorant glory.

Thanks for any input.

Cheers

[Uncletoad]

Gut carries better than you think it does from the driver's seat. Spirocores carry extremely well in a very different way. Spirocores cut through, Gut fills up from the bottom.

Spirocore Mittels are louder on my basses than Gut. A very dead set would be appropriate for Blue grass.

A gut set might suit bluegrass even better. From a tone standpoint.

If I was playing outside all summer I'd rather have Spirocores.

[Mark Perna]

My experience is if you stood in front of someone playing solo bass with Spiros on it versus the same bass with Gamut (or any quality gut string) guts on, the bass with Spiros would sound louder to you. If you stood in front of a band with the same bassist playing unamplified, the bass with guts would sound louder. The reason is Spiros have a very loud midrange which is easily masked by other instruments with similar frequency ranges. Guts have most of their power in the fundamental and first harmonic which is below most of the other instruments so there is little or no masking involved. The sound tends to carry a good distance. I've played a bunch of gigs without an amp with gut strings that would have been considerably less successful with steel strings.

Quality guts have plenty of sustain although not as much as steel. I played the melody to Smile at my gig last night on guts. All the sustain I needed and they sang like a bird. There is more thump to the front of the note but you can even control how much that comes out with your right hand pizz technique. It a bit more complicated than this but simplified: the more finger on the string, the more thump. If you don't want a lot of thump, pluck with the very end of your finger tips.

Steel string do respond faster so it is easier to play fast and they are more stable in temperature and humidity changes. Guts can go in and out of tune with changing weather although plain gut isn't affected that much. If you try to use wrapped gut for your A and E, you'll spend a significant amount of time tuning. I tried wrapped gut but it was too much of a headache even though they sounded great. I've been using Garbos for my A and E and they sound great as well.

I made the switch to guts well over a year ago and haven't looked back. I've done a lot of experimenting and have found the right combination of brand, gauge and type of string that let's me do what I want to do.

mark

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I'm not a gut guy, either in string habits or physical build, so I won't speak to that - it's not my thing. With steel and synthetic, however, when speaking of "punch" and "attack" and "quickness to speak", you can experiment a great deal with steels and synthetics by raising/lowering them. If you what a sound that will jump right out of the bass and punch you in the face so fast you don't see it coming, raise the strings and pull with arm weight in an "archery" kind of way. If you want a more sinuous, sustain-y, mwahh-ish fretless electric sound, set them really low. In between, season to taste.

Toad and I like our steels in the same ballpark heightwise. I like mine a cat hair lower and maybe hit them a little harder and he likes his a hair higher with a slightly darker attack, but we can swap basses and do fine. If you handed me a bass with guts on it and sent me off to play a gig on it, I'd be miserable and feel like I was dragging all night. There's nothing funnier and more pathetic than a steel player trying to find his sound on guts and pulling way too hard to get them to speak, which makes them choke out and sound like crap. It's a vibe transition that cuts all the way to the technique of the player, and some adjustment time is needed for those who experiment with switching. Figure out which type you are, then make the best music you can within that.

[zeytoun]

Funny, all these gut descriptions (except for the tuning issue) sound exactly like how EP Weichs play on my [weird] bass.

more finger, more thump - check
less midrange presence, more fundamental presence - check
danger of choking when overplayed - check

My bass speaks easily, but is a little on the quiet side (I vibrate the floor lightly on a low E). I tried to do a little outdoor gig a couple weeks ago, unamped, with an amped guitarist/singer. And made the mistake of REALLY digging in to compensate. It just choked (and gave me my first big blister).

But the only guts I tried were on a dead sounding shop bass, so I'm not sure how typical my experience with EP weichs is.

[Mark Perna]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

If you handed me a bass with guts on it and sent me off to play a gig on it, I'd be miserable and feel like I was dragging all night. There's nothing funnier and more pathetic than a steel player trying to find his sound on guts and pulling way too hard to get them to speak, which makes them choke out and sound like crap. It's a vibe transition that cuts all the way to the technique of the player, and some adjustment time is needed for those who experiment with switching. Figure out which type you are, then make the best music you can within that.

You're absolutely right. I had forgotten about that. I should go back and re-read my posts from a year ago. It took a LONG time (on the order of several months of intense practice) to completely make the switch from steel to gut. The touch in both hands but particularly the right is very different. The hard part was a lot of my "go to" licks, lines and patterns that worked great on steel, didn't work at all on gut and I had to develop a whole new set for gut. And there was a very frustrating transition period where I didn't have a lot of "go-to" stuff for gut. I've long since fully made the transition but it really required a dedication and desire to stick with it. For me, it was worth it but it might not be for everyone.

[Uncletoad]

I would say that for BLUEGRASS where you are asked to play Root Five over everything with power and boyancy that Old Spirocores or Guts are the best way to do that. Tradition says play gut strings and put the string height up some to get the most projection you can out of the bass. I have heard many BG bassists with ancient spirocores on old plywood basses that boom and project with the same authority as gut. The note just sounds a little different.

So I think it boils down to this. If you can live with the tuning issues and other things about gut strings that made people stop using them 50 years ago then they are the most authentic tone for the gig.

[Uncletoad]

And another thing. Nobody cares but you. Play what you want.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

You can also put spirocores on the bottom and gut on top. That way you get most of the benefits of each.
I am really liking an old set of Mittels with an Olive G. After experimenting with many different strings, this gives me the most volume, most consistent tuning (although the G is temperature dependent) and punch, punch, punch.

The only unwound gut I've played on this bass is an unwound Gamut G so I don't know how a pure gut setup would work.

You might also consider something like Velvet Garbos or Animas. Interesting strings.

[BAJO]

Gut sound louder overall than steel however, steel has an impression that they would sound louder. One thing to look at is the quality that u look for IN THE STRINGs. Gut strings by far if played right will give you lots of sustain and the volume will be way better than steel...

[BassGreaser]

I have been playing guts for years.. and started out on steels (spirocores) and I love how steels react super quickly but they just dont have the same power as guts have.. and the same in my mind "get out of the way of other instruments" tone as guts do. Yeah tuning sucks sometimes, but I tend to get to my gigs an hour early take the bass out asap and let turn it up and let it adjust to the room or out door temp before playing. then about 15mins before playing I start my warm up by playing some lines then turn right before playing again..

[Scott McC]

I'll probably be attacked for saying it, but.... steel is just way easier to play than gut. So, if the sound of gut isn't to your liking, it would be a waste of time.

[Salty]

Attack!

I think you probably already knew this on some level from the way you wrote your post, but I feel pretty strongly that it's a matter of preference and familiarity.

And I came to guts from classic Spiro Mittels for a long time.

In several ways I find the guts 'easier'.

All the best
Matt

[AMJBASS]

I ALMOST took off my Spiro Solos this afternoon after reading these threads in favor of gut. ALMOST I know that when I go to my gig tonight the Spirocores will sound great. But maybe gut would too... I better stop reading.

[Salty]

ONE OF US!!! ONE OF US!!!! ONE OF US!!!!

[bolo]

I think the way calivox answered you original question in post #3 was excellent.

I switched from old Spiro mittels to Velvet Garbos earlier this year. I'm happy with the way they sound and feel on my bass. The G in particular was an improvement for me, esp. amplified. I do strive for what some might call a somewhat "old school" jazz tone. The Garbos get me closer to that. My luthier agreed after we put them on. Sounded like "gut on an old recording," he said. I asked him to widen the strings slots in the nut and bridge to accomodate the Garbos.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

And another thing. Nobody cares but you. Play what you want.

Yeah, that too.

[AMJBASS]

Originally Posted by Salty

ONE OF US!!! ONE OF US!!!! ONE OF US!!!!

I have a nice set of Gamuts just sitting here too...

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

I have a nice set of Gamuts just sitting here too...

Uhhh. So you are waiting around for the "right time"?

Or do you need dinner, flowers, and a show before you do the deed?

[kmanley_29649]

Originally Posted by Adrian Juras

I have a nice set of Gamuts just sitting here too...

Since you're not using them, why don't you send them my way?

[rusag2]

Many thanks to all who have shared their hard-won knowledge with me, esp. @Calivox. I expect I'll be trying some guts in the next few months....birthday in August...so maybe the wife will chip in!