How horrible is the sound of arco on spirocores?

Blazemourne · #1 11-06-2006, 08:05 PM

Is it really that bad? Why is spirocore for cello great but spirocore for arco bass horrible?

**Basschair** · #2 11-06-2006, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blazemourne

Is it really that bad? Why is spirocore for cello great but spirocore for arco bass horrible?

I really like my E/A spiros: nice and bold, a little growly.

speyer · #3 11-06-2006, 08:23 PM

I have Spiros on my bass right now and they sound kinda "dry and scratchy" played arco.... compared to my Obli's anyhow. The strings are pretty new, about two months of occasional playing. I have only tried a few others like obli's and helicores so my opinion is quite uneducated!

dchan · #4 11-06-2006, 08:39 PM

I can't speak from great expereience.

I did bow a bass setup with I believe Spirocore mittels (orchestral?) when I visited Upton about a year ago. What I remember was that it was not especially scratchy, just more slippery on the bowhair than my Obligatos. This goes the same compared to other orchestral strings I tried, like Flexocors and Varicores.

However, that arco response was really different what was originally strung on my school's bass when they first bought it. The tailpiece wrapping colors of the strings say Helicore Orchestrals, but they played horribly under the bow. If you wanted scratchy, this was scratchy. Just completely unbowable. I recall that these strings had a really loud pizzicato sound, so I don't believe that they were really Helicore orchestrals.

Anyway, the point can be summarized like this: after Jack at Upton told me that these strings were Spirocore mittels, I was surprised by its relatively good bowability. I don't know about weichs or starks, though, since I never tried them.

sibass89 · #5 11-06-2006, 09:17 PM

The Stark E is killer, everything else sucks. You will worker harder trying to get a sound, that you won't even be able to work on intonation. It will have a negative effect on your playing.

Edit: Bowed of course

hdiddy · #6 11-06-2006, 10:16 PM

+1 on the Stark E. That's the only string I'm really happy with.

As for the rest of the strings (at least with Orchs), bow the note wrong and the note would sound like a horny cat.

Especially on the D string. Not fun. Got easier after a while when the strings broke in and I got a little more used to it. However, I still ended up making nails-on-chalkboard sounds from time to time anyway. No thanks!

Marcus Johnson · #7 11-07-2006, 01:23 AM

I really don't think that spiros sound horrible when bowed. I think that maybe this comes from the jazz community (myself included) where spiros bowed through a pickup and an amp sound like crap. I am a bow whiz by no means, but the spiros have served me well on recording sessions, as well as on unamped gigs or gigs with a mic only.

bassist1962 · #8 11-07-2006, 03:18 AM

[quote=dchan]I can't speak from great expereience.

I did bow a bass setup with I believe Spirocore mittels (orchestral?) when I visited Upton about a year ago. What I remember was that it was not especially scratchy, just more slippery on the bowhair than my Obligatos. This goes the same compared to other orchestral strings I tried, like Flexocors and Varicores.

QUOTE]

Would or could this slippery feel be aleviated by using more rosin on the bow, or would this just gunk up the bow, and not improve anything else? Also are you saying that the Flexocores and Varicores are slippery like the Spiros, or they bow more like the Obligatos?

PB+J · #9 11-07-2006, 05:19 AM

Spiros have a kind of a raw sound, to my ears--very powerful, very forceful, but kind of raw. Scratchy? Kind of--to me it's more "raw' sounding. I had thomastik BelCantos on my bass for a while--a really sweet, smooth sounding arco string, but bad for pizz. Spiros are a little harder to start, and they are harder to get a generically pretty sound with, but there's a lot of expressiveness in there. A new set sounds really different from a set that's mellowed for a few months. I have an old set on my bass now and I'm pretty happy with them. They really roar, and I'm getting better and making them sound pretty. They were originally designed, I believe, as an orchestral string. I'm tempted to order a set of weichs, which I've never tried

drurb · #10 11-07-2006, 08:00 AM

My solution: Dominants-- great pizz sound and quite bow-able.

YMMV

GriffithLea · #11 11-07-2006, 09:02 AM

How a given string will sound, and if it will be judged Good or Bad, depends on the bass, the player, and the musical style. At least.

I had Spirocores on my old bass - hated 'em. Harsh, gritty, brash, difficult to bow, etc. Went from them to Eudoxas and viewed (heard?) that as an extremely positive change. Do I think Spirocores are bad? No - they just aren't for me (at least not on that bass, but even so it's unlikely I would go down the Spirocore path again). I'm very particular about the way a string responds to the bow - I don't want any argument about the attack. I want immediate response to even the lightest touch with the bow, so as not to get a "sqawk" in some transparent piece of Mozart or whatever.

Also remember that there are Spirocores, and then there are Spirocores, e.g. Weich and Mittel. That could account for differing reports as to their bowability.

I would think that Spirocores on cello would be a completely different discussion. For one thing, a given line of strings (like Spirocore, Dominant, etc.) might not be as similar as you think between the instruments. These are just names. In any case, cellos are just different (obviously) so just because something is good for them doesn't mean it's good for bass. Incidentally, where did you hear that Spirocores are "great for cello"? (not arguing, just curious)

dchan · #12 11-07-2006, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Would or could this slippery feel be aleviated by using more rosin on the bow, or would this just gunk up the bow, and not improve anything else? Also are you saying that the Flexocores and Varicores are slippery like the Spiros, or they bow more like the Obligatos?

I can't say anything for sure, since I played the Spirocores just once and for a few minutes.

At Upton, I played the Spirocores right after I played a bass strung with Obligatos. I was testing out one of the $99 bows using Pops rosin.

The bowhair was definely more slippery on the Spirocores than the Obligatos. Using more rosin may help alleviate the slippery feel. However, from my experience, using too much rosin also can prevent the bow from pulling a smoother sound than you would like.
For loud, powerful pieces, this may not be a problem. For sweeter, softer pieces, or even solo pieces, this can hurt your sound.

On the Flexocores and Varicores, sorry I didn't make it so clear. These are orchestral strings, and bow just as well, if not better than the Obligatos.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #13 11-07-2006, 09:39 AM

Depends on your skills. Sid King is fond of telling the story of how he won his audition with the L.O. over 20 years ago playing Spirocore reds. My best guess is that if you've got the skills, you can make just about anything work.

damonsmith · #14 11-07-2006, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Depends on your skills. Sid King is fond of telling the story of how he won his audition with the L.O. over 20 years ago playing Spirocore reds. My best guess is that if you've got the skills, you can make just about anything work.

- +1. I have said it before, but I think they are the best for arco. They just have more overtones you have to control, once you can they will give up so much rich variation in tone.
A lot of great players with beautiful arco sounds use them:
Joelle Leandre, Mark Dresser, Stefano Scodanibbio, Barre Phillips and many others.
People bow all kinds of crap now, wood, metal, cymbals, music stands, styrofoam, any string should be no problem.
You do have to practice, however. If you only drag out the bow to end ballands no string is going to sound that great.

Mike Goodbar · #15 11-07-2006, 09:59 AM

The last set of Spirocores I had on a bass sounded great for arco.

Of course, they were about six years old at the time.

Marcus Johnson · #16 11-07-2006, 10:06 AM

[quote=damonsmith People bow all kinds of crap now, wood, metal, cymbals, music stands styrofoam, any string should be no problem.
You do have to practice, however. If you only drag out the bow to end ballands no string is going to sound that great.[/QUOTE]

That's true, and I'm going to try to remember that next time I blame my bad arco sound on my strings.

bribass · #17 11-07-2006, 10:29 AM

Spiros can be great. Nothing beats them for piz power IMO. You CAN make them sound sweet arco w/ the right technique.
I have never tried Flexocores on the lower strings, but I do use a Flex G on my German bass w/ the rest being Spiros. Spiro Mittels all across on my Prescott. When I play arco on the Flex G I never feel "Oh that's so much sweeter and less scratchy than the Spiro G". Just a bit more mello for piz w/ less whine, but not as much power and punch as a Spiro. Perhaps I'd feel differently about Flex D, A or E.
You do have to break in the Siros for awhile. For me they start to sound great after about a month of pretty heavy playing. They lose some of their metalic brashness by then.

BG

damonsmith · #18 11-07-2006, 11:11 AM

In most of these string discussions "they sound ______" needs to be changed to "I sound ______".

PB+J · #19 11-07-2006, 11:16 AM

What Damonsmith said seems right to me--I'm no virtuoso with the bow, but I have learned to sound pretty good on the spiros, and they give you a lot to work with, a lot of sound to shape

Steve Swan · #20 11-07-2006, 11:28 AM

A lot of the orhcestral players that I know still use Spirocore strings. The sound is a combination of strings, bow, bass, and player. A bright sounding bass may do better with a darker sounding string. A dark sounding bass will often sound nice and balanced with a brighter string like Spirocore.

Steve Swan