jazz gut player ready to go with steel (uh, long)

Aaron Cohn · #1 02-21-2007, 06:40 AM

I'm very close to ordering a set of Spirocores, but figured I'd check here for any other ideas first. I used Eudoxas for a few years--loved them but the winding problems got to be too much. For the last couple months I've been using Aquila Nylguts. They're great in some ways but I don't think they're the string for me right now. I put the Kolstein Heritage G that was on my bass when I bought it back on today, and I still don't like it--just my personal taste.

I've noticed when I've played other players' basses lately that I like Spirocores more than I once thought I did, and that they're not as far from guts as it might seem at first. They may be brighter than I'd prefer, but I like to play unamplified and that brightness seems to go along with a freedom of vibration and richness that, as with guts, helps the bass cut through the sound of a band. It seems to me that some of the strings touted as sounding more gut-like sound deader and/or thinner pizz than gut or steel strings and as a result cut through less well.

Eventually, I'll probably go for some fancy guts i.e. Gamut/Dlugolecki/Aquila. But right now I just want something that WORKS without breaking the bank. Qualities I'm looking for: 1. A loud string. 2. A string that's still loud on the bandstand--I've played some strings that sound loud in an empty room but cower in fear at the sight of a drummer (see above). 3. A bowable string--it doesn't have to be the easiest thing in the world to bow, but should produce a good sound when good technique is applied. 4. A reliable string that I can just slap on the bass and have it be true in pitch etc.

As I've said I'm leaning toward Spirocores. I've also given a little thought to Dominants and Animas. Dominants I unfortunately haven't been able to try on my bass or anyone else's, but I'm intrigued by what I've heard. I have mixed feelings about Animas--I liked them the last time I played them on someone else's bass, but as long as I'm not going for actual gut strings I think I'm a bit more drawn to the directness of the Spiros.

Any opinions on these strings, or ideas for other strings? I know very little about the Pirastro steel strings; I wonder if one of their many varieties might fit my needs. Also, if I go for the Spirocores, I have to decide between Weich and Mittel gauges. I suspect my bass can handle either tension just fine. If I go with the Weichs and slightly higher action can I expect to get similar projection to the Mittels at a lower action height?

Thanks for reading this far through my ramblings, and I look forward to your suggestions.

Aaron

**Francois Blais** · #2 02-21-2007, 06:49 AM

What about Superflexibles instead of Spiros?
They're somewhat darker, project well, bow better, and more affordable.

In the Pirastro line, the brighter orchestrals or hybrids are the FlatChromesteels (not the Original FlatChromes) and the Permanents.
However the E string in the FlatChrome set leaves to be desired, and may need to be replaced with something else.

tornadobass · #3 02-21-2007, 07:05 AM

I'm confining my comments to two strings, since both had been asked about. The possible choices are much, much wider and most people will throw in yet another string name as their ideal.

Anyhow, I've had Permanents on my American Standard for several months. I think they're the loudest string I've used on this bass and they have nice clarity and bowability.

Medium Spiros were nice, but not the Weichs, which sounded thin and lost some volume.

Uncletoad · #4 02-21-2007, 07:27 AM

Besides Gut my favorite strings so far are Dominants, Animas, and Spirocore Mittels with a Stark E. All are loud, all have their good and bad points, none of them are dissapointing. Coming from Gut the Dominants or Animas are a good midpoint between Gut and Spirocores.

PB+J · #5 02-21-2007, 07:38 AM

I've never played a set of gut strings--odd but there it is. I've used animas and liked them a lot--I'd be using them now if they were easier to bow. I had mittels on for a long time, but for a few months I've had a set of used weichs that I got from UncleToad. I like the weichs better than the mittels--they're easier on the left hand, easier to bow than either mittels or animas, and on my bass they have a deeper, softer sound with less nasal than mittels. They're more "organic" sounding. It was not what I expected--I sort of thought they would be like mittels, only more so, but they aren't. They have plenty of articulation and sustain but less of the annoying spirocore artifacts I got from mittels

larry · #6 02-21-2007, 08:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francois

What about Superflexibles instead of Spiros?
They're somewhat darker, project well, bow better, and more affordable.

+1

I use Superflexible E & A with Oliv D & G. Used to have all Superflexibles, but I love those Olivs.

PB+J · #7 02-21-2007, 08:27 AM

I'm pretty sure spirocores also have a core of braided or twisted strands of steel--hence the name (spiro-core)

**Francois Blais** · #8 02-21-2007, 09:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PB+J

I'm pretty sure spirocores also have a core of braided or twisted strands of steel--hence the name (spiro-core)

Indeed.
The braids in the Spiros are finer and intertwined in a different pattern than the Superflex, which use a traditional steel rope-core.

fingers · #9 02-21-2007, 09:54 AM

I tried a bunch of stuff when I got my Shen and settled on Weichs as I always do. I agree with PB+J too. The Mittels sound more harsh or something. All Spiros sound pretty edgy when they are new. I really like them once they've settled. It takes a few weeks though. I'd say if you are coming from gut you will not like them.

I used Obligatos for a little while and dug the slightly darker sound. I've mostly been a steel guy though and I couldn't get used to the floppy feeling pizz. They are real nice under the bow. I put them on my other bass in my teaching studio and still like them. They'd be my string of choice if it weren't for the feel.

I've been hesitant to use Dominants because they are infamous for breakage problems. I've tried them and they sound good. My thing is that I gig a bunch and I am leary of using a string that has durability issues. I've heard some people have had the same issues with the Animas.

Hey, are you Aaron Cohn that used to live in Chicago?

jazz bass guy · #10 02-21-2007, 10:24 AM

It sure is hard finding the perfect string. For many years, I used a combination of spiros on the E & A and Olive D & G. I tried Eudoxa as well, but I got tired of their fussy nature. They stretch like crazy when you put them on, though when they settle down, they are a dream, unless someone starts to cook some spaghetti, in which case they take a dive in pitch. I spent way too much time adjusting my open strings for my liking. I understand some folks don't mind that, but I find it very distracting. The other thing about coated gut is that for me, at least, they don't last long. Maybe I am hard on strings, I don't know, but after a few months, they were totally dead. At over $100 CAD a string, I just couldn't justify it anymore.

I finally tried Obligatos and was very pleasantly surprised at how much they felt and sounded like the pseudo-gut hybrid they are meant to be. They have a perlon core, and a very thin metal coating which focuses the sound nicely. They are the first string I have ever been able to stand for more than six months without a change. I think they are worth a try for sure. I haven't tried Dominants, but I hear they are similar.

It's such an expensive experiment. I wish you the best of luck in your quest.

KL

larry · #11 02-21-2007, 11:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PB+J

I'm pretty sure spirocores also have a core of braided or twisted strands of steel--hence the name (spiro-core)

My bad, thanks for the clarification. It's a shame, though - my joke was funny. At least to me...

Aaron Cohn · #12 02-21-2007, 11:41 AM

Thanks to all of you for the suggestions so far. Obligatos are nice strings, but I think they still lose a little something in their compromise. I know I mentioned Dominants myself, but I worry I'd just wish I still had gut. I think I'll go for an uncompromising steel string. The Superflexibles sound intriguing--looks like that or Weichs at the moment. I'll figure this out here.

Quote:

Originally Posted by fingers

Hey, are you Aaron Cohn that used to live in Chicago?

No, not me. But it seems we're all over the place. I know there's an Aaron Cohen who plays bass and lives in LA, or at least lived there as of a few years ago when I was there for a couple years. If he's not the one with the Chicago connection that makes three of us. I know at least one alto player who's played with both of us.

Aaron

Phil Rowan · #13 02-27-2007, 05:43 PM

I used Weichs on my Kay a while back, but they were just way too thin (both in feel and sound). I'm sure it had something to do with them being on a Kay, but I've found that I like the Mittels much better. They're a little beefier gauge-wise, and to me that helps beef up their sound too.

In terms of tension, I see very little difference between the two, and I think the Mittels are just fine for your hands. Right now I have Mittels E and A, and just today I put FCS on the D and G. I had been using Dominants D and G before, and while I really love their arco/pizz sound, on my dark Lang hybrid bass they just weren't cutting through enough. And for me the Mittels E and A provide a very strong fundamental low end.

I'm not sure I like the FCS yet, but I do like that they are brighter (but not nasal), and with arco they get a very sweet cello sound, which is sort of what I think I'm going for right now. I do wish they were a bit thicker in gauge, but maybe I'll get used to it. I'd say it really depends on your instrument whether or not a string works for you. I couldn't stand the Weichs, but maybe on another bass they would have sounded nice. Same with the Dominants, which is a shame, because I love those strings.

BTW, I think the Mittels bow way better than the Superflexes (those really didn't do it for me). I've heard other people play Superflexes though and they sounded great. Just my 2 cents.

robobass · #14 02-27-2007, 08:51 PM

Warning! Rant:
Let me dis (one or two S's?) Spirocores for the nth time. I find the sound to be unfocused, unclear, and incapable of any kind of nuance. Forget about bowing. Even in pizzicato, the muddiness of tone makes it impossible to play in tune. If you want steel, use Helicore orchestra. It is not quite as loud, but at least you have a chance to produce actual musical tone.

I know that I stand to suffer severe attacks from this statement, but I stand by it. My teacher, Homer Mensch, used solo Spirocores tuned to orchestra pitch for many years. I think Ron Carter and many other famous jazz bassists used standard Spirocores for much of their careers. But these were days when you could beat a Porshe with a Mustang. Many new strings have come available since then. Today, when I walk into a jazz club, I can recognize the out-of-tune sound of orchestra gauge Spirocores instantly, and I walk right back out. Maybe I am too sensitive, but this is one string which I think really detracts from the art.
Robobass

**Francois Blais** · #15 02-27-2007, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robobass

I think Ron Carter and many other famous jazz bassists used standard Spirocores for much of their careers.

Ron Carter?
I don't think so!
After playing guts for a long time, I think he switched to Labellas and still plays them today.

Aaron Cohn · #16 02-27-2007, 09:42 PM

So I put a set of Spirocore Weichs on at the end of last week. Figured I'd let them break in at least a little before posting here. Thanks to Steve Swan, I got to try Spiros (mittels) and Superflexibles on very similar basses before buying. The Superflexibles were nice strings, but just not as full in sound to my ears as the Spirocores.

I went with Weichs over Mittels for a few reasons. For one, my bass was **** loud with the Nylguts on, so I figured it shouldn't need all that much tension. Also, I prefer being able to comfortably keep my action a little higher--I feel like I can do a little more to notes with the left hand that way. And for another I'd prefer not to have tons and tons of sustain. Did I make the right choice? I'll judge that once I've played on them some more.

I'm liking the strings so far. I haven't had a no-amp gig yet to really test the strings, but they're developing nicely on my bass. As they settle in, I'm getting more fundamental from them. The G still sounds a little thin played pizz, but I think it'll get there with a little more time. I'm liking the strings with the bow as well--especially the G. The D still sounds a little raspy with the bow, but much less so than a few days ago, so I'm not worried. The E feels a bit flimsy to me, but I'll give it some time before switching it out for a heavier gauge.

Robobass, I used to think I hated Spirocores. I think, though, that for me it had more to do with that they're the default string for the ultra-low-action, lean on the amp crowd than with the strings themselves. I became open to the idea of them after hearing some players not in that set play on them lately. For what it's worth, I'm getting clear pitch on most of my notes. The only ones that sound a tad muddy are the ones where I'm getting involvement from the fingerboard. It's not really a full-on buzz--it might be what some call 'growl', but I don't like it. I need to get some work done on my fingerboard to try to help with this--right now my G is at about 7/16" and my E at 9/16" and I'd rather not go any higher.

Anyway, I'll see how they do without an amp this Thursday. My gig is kind of a session, so I'll probably get to hear my bass from the crowd as well. I have a good feeling though--it's hard to judge whether my bass is louder or softer now, but I suspect the strings will have the harmonic richness to cut through. This is where I think Spirocores and gut strings have more in common than is often acknowledged. To me, some of the popular synthetic strings may have an attack that is superficially a little more gut-like but they lack the fullness of tone of either guts or spirocores. I like the way some of them sound but the ones I have experience with just don't punch through a band as well. Nylguts are an exception, and I'm still curious about Dominants and whether they might do better in this department. Anyway, I'll keep updating as the strings settle in a bit more.

Aaron

Anonymous75966 · #17 02-27-2007, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aaron Cohn

I've noticed when I've played other players' basses lately that I like Spirocores more than I once thought I did, and that they're not as far from guts as it might seem at first.

This seems to go against the received wisdom, but I agree. I've found the gut strings I've used - Anima 1.0, DDs - to be, well, surprisingly not unlike Spirocores, with a lot more midrange and sustain than I expected. So I just use Spiros now, ha.

I also used to think I'd hate em for exactly the reason Aaron described - I associated them with that low action, electric, slippy, noodly tone. With a higher string height they seem to be a much more versatile string. Anyway, how can poor intonation be characteristic of a string, or dependent on anything other than the player? That don't make sense.

pipeman · #18 02-27-2007, 10:25 PM

listen to dave holland play the orchestra spirocores pizz and arco on the old "emerald tears" album........

bassist1962 · #19 02-28-2007, 04:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francois

What about Superflexibles instead of Spiros?
They're somewhat darker, project well, bow better, and more affordable.

In the Pirastro line, the brighter orchestrals or hybrids are the FlatChromesteels (not the Original FlatChromes) and the Permanents.
However the E string in the FlatChrome set leaves to be desired, and may need to be replaced with something else.

Francois, I submitted a thread about this, but have no replies, what is the difference between FCS and Original FCS? Also, which one is in the guage sticky, the strings look like a light guage which would suit me very well.

robobass · #20 02-28-2007, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Chokroun

Anyway, how can poor intonation be characteristic of a string, or dependent on anything other than the player? That don't make sense.

Well, it's the kind of tone you get. A string with good tonal clarity allows you to hear the pitch better, and hence have better intonation.

Example:
I have a student with a new Wilfer bass that came with Spirocores. We switched to Helicore orchestra at the last lesson, and he suddenly was playing much more in tune. He says he can hear much better now.

Of course if you have a great instrument you might get get a good tone even with Spiros, but there are simply better choices.
Robobass