The meaning of life

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by D McCartney

Troy, could I ask what it is you are looking for in a string? Do you use one type of string as a standard to measure other strings qualities?

A Novella.

So, this is a fair question and probably the only relevant one in the entire strings forum, short of data (cost, materials, tensions, diameters, etc). We go on and on and on and about our opinions and perspectives on various products and even if I read back on my old posts form a few years ago, would I offer the same advice today? Maybe. Sort of.

But, it’s fair. What the hell am I looking for in my quest for “the sound” by trying all of these strings? What are you guys looking for? What is the meaning of life? Are we alone in the universe? Some of these questions are easier to answer than others. Let me go straight for the most difficult one; the one about the strings.

I can tell you that my attitudes have changed a lot about this over the years and I can see other people going through a similar cycle. That may land us in the same place or different ones, but much like life it’s possible to chase what you think you want find it and then realize that it really isn’t what you wanted after all.

For me, there were a couple of things that I have been chasing historically. Let me set it up for you. Before I get into strings, let me say that I love my bass. I feel like it is a good one. It’s not a great one, but it’s mine and I love it. I’ve always felt like I had to compensate for some overly bright treble (D and G) overtones. I’ve worked with my luthier on it and we’ve made some good changes. Jake’s offered to do some things that he thinks might help, I’ve put it out of my head with some degree of success. But, my string experiences, certainly have (as always, with everyone) to do with my preferences, my ear, my bass, my hands and my twisted psyche.

My string criteria:

First: The Sound – Sam Jones, Charles Mingus. Woody, Airy, Strong, Clear, Focused. Distinct, but not bright. Warm, but not wooly. Loud. It would be great not to need an amp a lot of times. I don’t like amplification and when I use it I want it to be transparent.

Second: Comfort – I’ve had strings that my hands don’t respond well to for one reason or another. Sometimes they adjust sometimes they don’t. Certain windings just seem to cut me worse than others. Certain tensions (both too low or too high) tend to cause strange pain in odd places.

Third: Tension. Related to both sound and comfort. I’ve played with my string height and luthier set up and found a few combinations that seem to really open my bass up and help it sing. I get frustrated when I feel like my set up, which includes choice, construction and age of strings isn’t supporting my instrument in doing what it’s designed to do. When this happens it also seems counter productive to my playing and I find myself fighting with rather than communing with the process.

Forth: Durability. This means a few things. I have zero tolerance for strings that have a good likelihood of breaking or unwinding on a gig. (or a bass or an amp or a cable or anything else). I have to be able to count on my gear the same way that I have to be able to count on the other musicians, they have to be able to count on me and we have to be able to count on the venue, etc. I eliminate any product with a reputation for this type of statistical unreliability. Second is more like, how long do they last before they go dead or otherwise need to be replaced. It becomes an economic issue then. (See below)

Finally: Economics. I’m willing to invest in strings and my sound. Talkbass and good relations with Pirastro have kept that reasonably down for me, but I have limits. I can’t “try out” $500 strings that are only sold in full sets or replace $60 G strings 3x per year. Where are my economic lines drawn for the otherwise perfect set up? I’m not sure, I haven’t found it yet. But I’ll say that so far, more expensive strings haven’t made me happier, so I don’t think that’s the answer.

Before I fast forward to my current state of mind, the best, most consistent string solution I found following this formula was Pirastro Permanents E-D and Flatchrome G. The tension was nice for me. The E and A sounded great out of the box, but started losing their edge almost immediately. They settled into a nice wholesome honest tone, losing their growl after maybe 3 or 4 weeks. The G settled in after a week or two and was very tasty. I never loved the D, but it was fine. I probably didn’t give the Flatchrome D a fair chance, but the Perm D was reasonable. Arco was fine. I’m not expert on finer points, but not scratchy. Easy for a guy like me to deal with. Good all around strings. Playing a moderately heavy schedule, they lost all their goodness after about 6 months. 5 – 7 depending on factors that I couldn’t pinpoint. They just kind of went dead and not in a good gutlike way. They just lost what was good about them, pitch stability, didn’t sing anymore. New strings were like a new bass. So call it $250/yr for a good set up that maybe I should go back to and forget about it.

But, here’s what sometimes bugged me. I didn’t have my EA amp back then and I played in a band that liked to get funky now and again and all that warmth and woodiness is not really an asset in those settings. But, I was listening to Jones and Mingus and trying things like Flexicore ‘92’s which feel like absolute heaven under my fingers and sound lovely in my practice space. In fact, I heard someone sit in on my bass from 25 feet out front and I thought they sounded quite lovely out there too (kept the Perm E on). But they sound like the drummer when you’re standing over the bass. I just couldn’t hear anything. So, do I want to bring a monitor to gigs? Start wearing an earpiece? Will that cut it in a bigger hall? Similar experiment with other orchestra strings with similar results. Love the sound at home, made playing jazz live unpleasant. Might have made listening pleasant for the audience, except that I probably wasn’t playing well because I couldn’t really hear myself.

After many such experiments, I went the other way in a TB trade and got some Jazzers and very old Spirocores. I kept the Jazzers on for 14 months which is record for me. A full set, no less, no mixing and matching. They were bright on the treble side for my taste, which I knew would happen, but I ignored as best I could, gave it time to settle and focused on my playing. In general, what I found was that I didn’t love (but didn’t really hate) my sound at home, but my sound on stage was way closer to what I had been trying to achieve.

A warm sound at home = the perception of a muddy or indistinct sound in a noisy live setting

An aggressive sound at home = the perception of a warm sound in a noisy live setting

So, enter a post from DRURB, who has forgotten more about psychoacoustics than I will ever understand and I’m sure I’m not explaining this right. I’m not even sure that I understand this or know what I want at this point. As a matter of fact, I’m sure that I don’t. But what I do know is that my criteria is different in certain ways than it used to be. When newbees come on and say “which strings are best”, I’m crusty now. I have experience now that completely changes how I feel about what I want. I don’t know where that is going to lead me. It might lead me back to my PERM/FCS set up, but I don’t think so. It might lead me to Spirocores, but I’m not convinced of that either. I haven’t quite given up on the EPs all or in part yet, but I’ll get to them in a minute. I’ve good luck with Jazzers and I have a few ideas about what to maybe try next.

So, a couple of other things, that I keep mentioning in posts, but not getting into and I won’t here, but I’ll touch on. One, I had a significant bass related injury come on in the last year with my left shoulder/arm/hand. I’m working through it and it’s going to be O.K., but I need to pick a set-up, find a friendly balance point for me and stick to it and stop fooling around. Second, in the summer-of-Jazzers, I spent some time with a, let’s call him an unnamed mentor (non-bassist) who I cornered and demanded and got good, solid, helpful feedback from. One of the things he said was “most bassists who I play with have a bounce or a sound that they go for and I think you need to find that”.

So the point being that while Jazzers worked well for me, (and he heard me at the peek of my injury and the end of those string’s life), but still this isn’t my sound. I had just given up and that’s not right either. I’m tempted (as I know several of you have said you are) to just go back to Spirocores, but honestly, I don’t like (for me) the way George Mraz’s bass sounds. I was listening last night a recording of a world renowned bassist who I won’t mention by name because I personally know and love him and he’s a devout Spirocore user and don’t like that sound (his playing is great). It was recorded in the 80’s and probably with an Underwood who knows what else and that’s what he wanted to sound like, so good on him, but I do need to sound like I want to sound like. I am making music after all. It is my voice. My singing.

So, when Evah’s came out and I needed strings anyway, I had to try them. It was a great decision for me because they are the string I have been waiting for. The sound, the gauge, the general tension, feel, winding, price. They seem to not break or unwind. You can bow them, but they’re pizz strings. Dark and woody. But, they don’t flex sonically well to changes in the room and the band and as discussed in that mega thread, there is something about the tension/stiffness ratio that is making them hard for me to play for 3 or 4 sets. I’m taking good care of my injury; Alexander Technique, Bass Technique, exercise. But, others are reporting the same issues, so if these strings are fighting me, they aren’t probably the best for me right now.

My new criteria:

First: The Sound – Me. Honest. Natural. The sound on my bass and my hands. Versatile to the music and bands and rooms I play in. Doesn’t have to be totally transparent. I don’t expect perfection in every setting, they can’t fail me sonically when I’m playing for money. I can’t hate the way they sound when I’m practicing or I won’t have joy in playing. I guess I’m going to have to learn to like and deal with amplification and equalization. It probably has more to do with what I’m experiencing than the strings, although the psychoacoustic experience of the perceived change in tone with the addition of other instruments and sound factors in the room are true with or without an amp in play.

Second: Cooperation between me and my strings and my instrument. This means some reasonable tension that enables me to play 4 sets and the table to resonate openly and loudly. Smooth windings that don’t harm my fingerboard, bridge or fingers. My luthier helps with this obviously. Clearly my technique and my health play a role in this too, but my equipment must not work against me.

Third: Durability. Still zero tolerance for any expectation of breakage or physical failure on a gig. I’m willing to replace strings, on some reasonable schedule depending on their price and the predictability of that schedule. There’s really no reason a string shouldn’t last at least a year, but I’ve got some flexibility on this point…SOME.

Finally: Economics. How much will I pay for the perfect string? I don’t know. Show me the perfect string. $100-150 is still the most that anyone can expect to enter the market for and they’re going to have to give some freebees away and have some good reviews to do that.

But, here’s the deal. I’m sick of experimenting with strings. I’m ready to put some strings on get my bass set up again and start transcribing, composing, selectively taking the gigs I want and declining the gigs I don’t, learn to use my eq properly, get healthy. Stop the madness. I swear Thomastik, Pirastro, Velvet and Corelli are owned by Big Pharm.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

He wants a Spirocore that sounds like a Gut string, bows like a Flexocor, stays in tune and sounds perfect night after night no matter what the gig, plugged in or acoustic.

...and will make you a sandwich for the break.

What kind of sandwich? PM me, let’s talk.

[Marcus Johnson]

Man, I'm feelin' ya. I can relate to every single bit of your post.

If I were to distill it down to one thing that I've learned from all this experimenting (and I've done less than some y'all), it's pretty simple... if someone is looking at me and counting off any given tune at any given tempo, I stand the best chance of acquitting myself well with an old set of Spirocores. They don't break. They bow well. They pizz fantastically. They amplify well. They get a sound that is pleasing to most bandleaders when they think of a modern contemporary DB sound. They last for-frickin'-ever. And they don't cost much. When I go into a mild panic mode like I have on the calendar in the next few months, they are very comforting to me.

I'm talking about day-to-day, meat n' potatoes, journeyman freelance DB playing that requires sonic versatility. If I was in one band that required guts or whatever, I'd do that... but that isn't what pays my mortgage. As I said in another thread, Spiros have saved my a$$ time and time again. I'm not using them now, but I'll recommend them until the end.

[Marcus Johnson]

Oh, and get a teacher.

[JonathanD]

Ya know what answers all those questions for me.

Whatever I say. (this is not meant to be a smart comment, I truly mean it.)

For you I hope it is whatever you say.

Do we not all decide what is good, bad, meaning, etc. Just ideas that float around and actually matter little. The 80's are coming back, apparently there is no standard to correctness that is universal.

***********
new strings every 2 weeks.
Jonathan

[Marcus Johnson]

All due respect, Jonathan... it's different for double bassists (I play slab too, different set of concerns entirely). New strings every two weeks doesn't apply here. Unless your name is Phil.

I do appreciate your comment... unfortunately, in my case "whatever I say" changes from day to day, which can get expensive when strings run 150 and up (WAY up) per set.

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

Oh, and get a teacher.

[]

I have a teacher, but his money his going to my Alexander teacher right now, which both he and I agree is for the best. I'll get back to him when things are working right again.

Reading over my post, I might could use a therapist, though!

Of couse that's what you guys are for.

Marcus, do you not feel any extra fatigue from the EPs? Just curious, I don't want to make this an EP thread.

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by TroyK

[]


Marcus, do you not feel any extra fatigue from the EPs? Just curious, I don't want to make this an EP thread.

Little bit. Nothing major. I usually feel a little pumped at the end no matter what, if I've played hard enough. The EPs need more work for aggressive soloing, but they pay me back during the rhythm section playing, because I don't need to nail them too hard for the sound.

I really wish I could just go gut. I could play 24-7 on those things.

[TroyK]

Just listen to your gut, Marcus.

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by TroyK

Just listen to your gut, Marcus.

Hehe... don't tempt me. Gutty heaven is only a credit card away... unless my wife finds out... then I'll get to know the couch for awhile.

I'm going to let some other wise guys respond .... Packers/Cowboys game beckons. Well, the pregame beckons.

[Don Higdon]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

... if someone is looking at me and counting off any given tune at any given tempo, I stand the best chance of acquitting myself well with an old set of Spirocores. They don't break. They bow well. They pizz fantastically. They amplify well. They get a sound that is pleasing to most bandleaders when they think of a modern contemporary DB sound. They last for-frickin'-ever. And they don't cost much. When I go into a mild panic mode like I have on the calendar in the next few months, they are very comforting to me.

I'm talking about day-to-day, meat n' potatoes, journeyman freelance DB playing that requires sonic versatility. If I was in one band that required guts or whatever, I'd do that... but that isn't what pays my mortgage. As I said in another thread, Spiros have saved my a$$ time and time again. I'm not using them now, but I'll recommend them until the end.

Yes.

[EJ_Dad]

And Marcus who's your favorite Romo or Farve?

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by EJ_Dad

And Marcus who's your favorite Romo or Farve?

My friend.. you might not like the answer.... now pardon me while I grill up some brats...

[Jake deVilliers]

Nice mid-life crisis you've got going there Troy. The good news is that it will pass and you'll have gained in wisdom & strength.

Have you ever tried Superflexibles on your bass? There is a family resemblance to Spirocores in the sturdy construction, low price and smooth windings but the sound is thicker and blunter in a good way. I have two customer basses in now with these strings on and have been reminded of their good qualities.

I could send you some used ones if you want but they're very cheap new too.

..............................

And Marcus, around here the question has more to do with Canucks goalie Roberto Luongo vs the Blue Jackets' Pascal LeClair.

Sorry Phil, Go Canucks!

[TroyK]

When I bought my bass, it had Superflexibles on it. I liked them fine, but remembered some "sprongy" sensations, especially on the D string, which may be a little wolfy on my bass anyway. To a lesser degree the G. I went from there to Obligatos and when my E and A Obligatos fell apart under the massive force generated by my giant pizz finger, I put the Superflex's back on and remember thinking they were "fine". I remember them going on and off for a while (the E and A) and always thinking they were fine.

I've thought about them again and if I still had that set, I might try them, but I gave them to a friend. I have new sound post and a shimmed bridge since then that may have changed the nature of my treble strings a bit. My biggest fear of Spirocores is the G and maybe D strings. If I thought I could do Mettiel with a SF on the G or maybe D and G, I might do it.

I'm also considering Obligatos on the treble side again although I swore I wouldn't do that. It's really the E and A that didn't hold up for me. I do prefer all metal strings for solid construction.

If you've got some old ones laying around that I could try, Jake, I could experiment. I have some old Mettiels that I've never put on absent the G string.

[Anonymous75966]

Originally Posted by TolstoyL

A warm sound at home = the perception of a muddy or indistinct sound in a noisy live setting

An aggressive sound at home = the perception of a warm sound in a noisy live setting

+1. It's much easier to take frequencies out (through some mediation of hands, amp, mic, mix) than to put 'em in if they're not there in the first place. More information is better than less information.

As a side note, consider that what musicians call 'warmth,' engineers refer to as 'noise.'

[D McCartney]

That's a lot to ask of any string unless you're talking quantum physics.

Novella
So sound, playablilty, cost and a lunch, that makes sense. Do you enjoy changing strings?


For playing amped, I have read elsewhere on TB the recommendation to get the acoustic sound first, then figure out how to amplify it. How does your bass sound when recorded live compared to what you hear while playing? Mine sounds different than standing next to it.

Let me know if you are playing in Pierce County anytime soon.

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by D McCartney

Do you enjoy changing strings?

No, kind of tired of that too.

Originally Posted by D McCartney

For playing amped, I have read elsewhere on TB the recommendation to get the acoustic sound first, then figure out how to amplify it. How does your bass sound when recorded live compared to what you hear while playing? Mine sounds different than standing next to it.

Things definitely sound different out front than standing over it. So, there is a decision regarding how you want it to sound for you vs your band mates vs your audience. However, let's say it sounds perfect for the audience and the microphone in the audience, but the drummer and I can't really hear the quarter note, so we don't react to it as we should so the music doesn't happen, which means that good tone or not, what the audience and that microphone hears isn't really that great.

Originally Posted by D McCartney

Let me know if you are playing in Pierce County anytime soon.

I will! I was booked down there this month, actually, but there was a problem with the date it and didn't come off. It may get rescheduled for January.

[TimoMetzemakers]

Troy, I just read the whole novella (whew!) and I know that I'm going out on a limb here, but could it be possible that the sound that you're really hearing is the gut sound? I mean plain, unwrapped gut. Maybe with steels on the bottom.

I think high quality plain guts meet all the criteria you set forth: sound (you mentioned Mingus and Sam Jones!), volume, tension, comfort, and durability. Well, maybe not economics but their long lifespan might compensate for that drawback.

I'm sure that this has already occurred to you at some point, so what do you think?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Troy - I can only relate my experiences and hope that there may be a shred or two of something helpful it it. With that said, two of your quotes make alarm bells go off in my head:

Originally Posted by SPIROTROYK

A warm sound at home = the perception of a muddy or indistinct sound in a noisy live setting

An aggressive sound at home = the perception of a warm sound in a noisy live setting

Originally Posted by TROYKESTRA

I can’t hate the way they sound when I’m practicing or I won’t have joy in playing. I guess I’m going to have to learn to like and deal with amplification and equalization.

I agree wholeheartedly with both statements, even though they might at first seem incompatible. Here's why: anybody who has read even one of my string comments knows I like loud, tense, obnoxious, in-your-face steel strings. The reason for this is that they are the only kind of strings that I can make work for me in the "worst of all possible worlds", aka the dreaded "noisy gig". Any string that's "soft" or "warm" or "organic" just dies in this environment, and I can't hear pitch... and I really hate life when I can't hear pitch.

Which brings me to your second quote. I agree, but would add that there's "equalization", and then there's "Equalization". The first kind is twiddling knobs on an amp, which can be pretty useful at times; the second kind is in the hands, ears, and brain.

1) Hands: when practicing with bright/tense/"up-yers-bud" type strings, you know they can cut through a mix like buttah; can you make them whisper? Can you, through that mystical mode of touching the string with a different angle or stroke of your finger, minimize the "whine factor"? Can you make them sing while minimizing the "nasal" portion and maximizing the "chest voice"? I love the challenge of trying to do this.

2) Ears: try moving around the room you practice in, and try moving your ears around to get them to a place where they're out of the "zing zone" (we often live there if we lean our heads forward). Also check out the type of reflections you're getting back from the walls of your practice room. Sometimes just spinning yer bass (in my case, stool) around slowly can help you find a better sounding mix.

3) Brain: Knowing the info you posted in the first quote is true, and backing that up with some feedback from recordings from out front in the middle of a mix, can you make the translation when you're practicing? For me, once there's a cymbal in the mix in any way, shape or form, everything I dislike about bright strings becomes moot because it's buried. YMMV, YMMCB, etc...

[Uncletoad]

I'll get in on this later. Vincent gave me the gift of flu and I can't see straight....