New Spirocore dilemma

BrandonTurner · #1 05-26-2010, 01:53 PM

The background:
So I have become a world music bass player guy here in Los Angeles. I play tango, jazz, turkish, klezmer, gypsy jazz and whatever else. I play about equal amounts arco and pizz. I play with accordion a lot and needed a string that would cut through the overtones when I played arco.

The Strings:
Last year I settled on a mixed set of Spirocore E/A and Permanent D/G and it worked pretty well. I love the A/E sprios. Last month I got it in my head that maybe I should get a brighter string for the G/D especially because Perms lose there edge after a bit. I was hoping for a little brighter, louder and punchy string like the permanents. So I ordered a set full set of Spirocores hoping that the G/D would do it.

The Problem:
I have had the new strings on for week and the D is OK but G is gross! For arco it doesn't seem to have the huevos that the perms have and for pizz. the Muaaahh sustain factor it is a little too pronounced. I know spiros take a while to settle out but to what end?

The Question:
Should I wait and see if they settle to my liking or just go back to the Perms? Is there another string I am not thinking of?

String aficionados please advise.

damonsmith · #2 05-26-2010, 02:33 PM

I would just practice on the Spiros until you get what you need out of them. They have more information so you sometimes need to do more to control them, but in the end they give more colors.

Uncletoad · #3 05-26-2010, 02:34 PM

Common problem. Solution is you have to wait and see. Sometimes they end up sounding pretty good, sometimes they continue to suck. Depends on the bass, the player and the setup.

Usually for me the D string settles in fine it's the G that is rough. No easy thing, to find the proper G to mix in. Some possibilities that I've tried are:

Superflexible, good blend better arco, still kinda thin.
Belcanto, decent blend, great arco, slower pizz.
Dominant, seamless blend, great arco, great pizz, sometimes seem stiff, breakage prone.
Original Flatchrome, good blend, nice arco, decent pizz. Sometimes not much better than a spiro.
Oliv, a little dark, blend best when the spiros are old, smooth arco, doesn't cut like a spiro, beautiful pizz. Breakage prone.
Evah Pirrazzi regular, darkish like the Oliv, nice arco, notes are rounder than spiros, not as defined, kinda stiff.
Evah Pirrazzi weich as above but not so stiff.

Seems like I get frustrated, put on all those strings and then end up back with the mittel anyhow. Nothing is perfect. You have to decide what you can live with.

Marcus Johnson · #4 05-26-2010, 02:41 PM

I agree with Damon and Toad. Give 'em some time. Lots of time. the rewards come later with Spiros.
I actually got more whomp out of Spiro Weich G on my bass. I think I had a really good one... it's still in the the string drawer, with the rest of the set, for when I come to my senses.

BrandonTurner · #5 05-26-2010, 03:07 PM

Thanks guys, I kind of figured this was the case but wow the string is annoying! I will just keep beating on it for a few more weeks and see what happens.

When are they going to come out with a the perfect set?

Marcus Johnson · #6 05-26-2010, 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandonTurner

When are they going to come out with a the perfect set?

When mice bark.

Jaromir · #7 05-26-2010, 03:28 PM

The Spiro Weichs are definitelly worth checking. They sound and feel quite different from the mittels, but with the basic character of Spiros (what we like about them). It really depends on the bass, on my "big" bass, they sound darker and more organic then mittels and also feel better - it's obvious that this bass likes them better.
On my Czech Ease I have mittels and they sounded fine right from the beginning and also feel fine, not so stiff like on the big bass...

BrandonTurner · #8 05-26-2010, 03:48 PM

I tried spiro weich's last year before I settle on the mixed set. It seemed like I would choke them out when playing fortissimo in high registers, I would want more and they would quit.

B

TroyK · #9 05-26-2010, 04:04 PM

I think giving it time is a good move. If you can be happy with a full set of Spirocore Mittels, as many, many people are, your life will be much more simple than if not. Once you start playing around, it is really tough to stop. There is not commonly agreed upon secret string or mix. Nothing cuts through like spirocores, which seems to be important to you.

That said, a very gentle adjustment would be a Thomastik Superflexible G string. Similar construction to the Spiro Mitts, same manufacturer, similar life cycle. Will be warmer and easier with the stick right out of the box and gauge and tension will feel the same.

Perms are good strings as are Evah Pirazzis as are a whole bunch of other stuff, but it's a slippery slope and I haven't found anything that really solves all of my problems.

Uncletoad · #10 05-26-2010, 05:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TroyK

I haven't found anything that really solves all of my problems.

Especially strings.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marcus the sage

When mice bark

Spit out my food funny.

Phil Rowan · #11 05-26-2010, 06:14 PM

fdeck · #12 05-29-2010, 08:47 PM

I just hung a set of Spiro Mittels on my new bass to see how they compare to the Obligato's that were on there. Spiro Mittels were just right for pizz on my old Kay, but bowing was difficult. Still, I always wondered if it was the strings, the plywood bass, my technique, or what. So I think they are worth trying again on the new bass, and I got a deal on a set from the Classifieds.

I'll write a post-twang report when they settle down.

BrandonTurner · #13 06-08-2010, 11:35 AM

Ok, After 3 weeks and them settling down and me playing the crap out of the spirocore mittels. I bailed on the G and D. The brightness and awkward sustain died but it still wasn't working. I am a pretty aggressive acro player and the G and D needed a lot of work to bow. I also felt like the combination of the full set made the whole bass stiffer. I feel like the E and A are easier with the Perms on. Oddly I felt like I had trouble hearing intonation in some registers too...

I bailed out and put an old G + D Permanent on and the bass sounds more open and is easier to play. I Tried....

fdeck · #14 06-08-2010, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BrandonTurner

Ok, After 3 weeks and them settling down and me playing the crap out of the spirocore mittels. I bailed on the G and D. The brightness and awkward sustain died but it still wasn't working. I am a pretty aggressive acro player and the G and D needed a lot of work to bow. I also felt like the combination of the full set made the whole bass stiffer. I feel like the E and A are easier with the Perms on. Oddly I felt like I had trouble hearing intonation in some registers too...

I bailed out and put an old G + D Permanent on and the bass sounds more open and is easier to play. I Tried....

During your trial of the Spiro's, did you discover any ways to make them more bowable, or maybe less un-bowable? I am going through exactly the same trial right now, and am experiencing what I think is called "falsing," where the note starts out an octave above where it belongs and stays there. The same bow, technique, and rosin, play much more nicely on the Obli's that came with the bass.

Part of my dilemma is that I am not a super advanced player, so my technique could always be at fault, but I also don't want to spend my life struggling against the impossible.

damonsmith · #15 06-09-2010, 02:10 AM

The more you understand how overtones color the sound, the better your arco sound is going to be on any string.
Try studying every sound you get out of them. The more you understand the tones you do not want, the easier it is the NOT make those sounds.
Spiros just have a lot more harmonic information than most strings once you understand them all those strings people think are "better for arco" are just going to sound dead to you - unless you are trying to blend in a section or for other pro classical situations, although some well known new music soloists use Spiros.

CimaJazz · #16 06-09-2010, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by damonsmith

The more you understand how overtones color the sound, the better your arco sound is going to be on any string.
Try studying every sound you get out of them. The more you understand the tones you do not want, the easier it is the NOT make those sounds.

Can you please elaborate?
The overtone series is always present, however the amplitude (volume) of partials is affected by the characteristics of the bass, strings, bow, and also room size, temperature, humidity, etc. That's why same strings sound different in different basses/rooms. I do not see how you can kill the overtones that you do not want to be present.

Uncletoad · #17 06-09-2010, 08:36 AM

One of the things I've come to appreciate about spiros is they have a wide pallate. It's easier to get a round pure tone on other "arco friendly" strings but you can not get the upper partials and other harmonic content on those more subdued constructions you can on Spirocores. You can get a warm clean sound from Spirocores by varying bow weight and speed and angle of approach to the string but these are subtle things that require time to train your hand to find.

If you just want a big round sound fast without having to finesse the strings then Spiros are a bitch to work with. If you want that upper harmonic sound though you can't get it.

Spirocores project like mad on my basses arco. If I can keep them from making sounds I don't want the bass responds with power and clarity I don't get from flexocors. There is a lower midrange focus to flexocor that are crucial to working in an ensemble where blending is paramount, however in my application blending with other basses isn't the gig.

BrandonTurner · #18 06-09-2010, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fdeck

I am going through exactly the same trial right now, and am experiencing what I think is called "falsing," where the note starts out an octave above where it belongs and stays there.

IMO this is usually a technique problem , make sure you bow is pulling straight and try a little closer to the bridge. With the spirocores you need to be very aware of bow placement. That is part of what makes them tricky but that awareness will pay off.

Greg Clinkingbeard · #19 06-09-2010, 01:05 PM

Maybe technique and maybe not. If it happens over the entire bass, yes. However, a wolf tone can be very frustrating and cause the fundamental to drop and leave nothing but higher overtone warbles.
It is what caused me to keep putting spirocores back in the drawer. As much as I loved their pizz qualities, bowing them was nearly impossible on my bass before I killed the wolf.

damonsmith · #20 06-09-2010, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CimaJazz

Can you please elaborate?
The overtone series is always present, however the amplitude (volume) of partials is affected by the characteristics of the bass, strings, bow, and also room size, temperature, humidity, etc. That's why same strings sound different in different basses/rooms. I do not see how you can kill the overtones that you do not want to be present.

You can manipulate which overtones come through with more or less clarity it through bow pressure, speed and placement.
It isn't an exact math equasion, you just have to experiment, because as you said there are many factors that can change it.
In traveling I have played so many set ups over a wide range of quality in basses and I have yet to find an instrument I couldn't get a decent sound out of because of the strings.