Question for Orchestra bassists....

lucas vigor · #1 09-16-2010, 10:32 AM

So, I had my first rehearsal with a symphony orchestra last night, and my strings left me seriously underwhelmed. I am estimating I was at about ½ the volume of the other bassists. I am using Spirocore weichs, and everyone is suggesting Bel Cantos. If I do this, will I get more bass and more volume? My instrument is not a carved top, and I use a French bow. I would still like to be able to play jazz, if possible.

I would appreciate any help....and I apologize if this question has been asked before.....

SLivinghouse · #2 09-16-2010, 05:13 PM

Check the Evah Pirazzi megathread as well as the Bel Cantos. EPs were the best for both Arco and pizz that I have found on my bass.

JtheJazzMan · #3 09-16-2010, 06:24 PM

Are you judging this volume only from your own perspective or did someone else mention your volume? It is entirely possible that it only seems 1/2 volume from where your ears are in relation to your own bass.

Andrew McGregor · #4 09-16-2010, 11:18 PM

I played Spiro Weichs in orchestra for years... but my bass isn't yours.

You always sound quieter than your neighbour, that's normal. If you can still hear yourself play, you're making enough sound. If you're sounding as loud as your neighbour, then you're actually too loud. Now, the next question is, is it the right sound, and that's partly a matter of opinion and partly technique.

One thing to be aware of is that in orchestra playing, timing is everything. If you're out of time you can sound out of tune or too quiet or both. If you nail the timing, the others become so much easier.

drurb · #5 09-17-2010, 07:05 AM

I agree with everything said above. Assuming your bass really is not radiating enough power, a change of strings may not be the remedy as that might produce a louder sound but, as Andrew noted, not the right sound. You mentioned that your bass does not have a carved top. Well, the plain truth is that no ply top is ever going to produce the deep resonating sound that can be produced by a carved top. Still, I've heard Evahs really wake up ply basses and, all things considered, that sure would be a relatively inexpensive experiment. What kind of basses are your section mates playing?

lucas vigor · #6 09-17-2010, 08:10 AM

Well, so far there ate 4 of us....the guys on my left have two identical student basses, not carved. The guy on my right has an old bass, carved. He and I switched basses and I immediately noticed his had more bass, more volume, more punch.
My first thought was indeed that mine not being carved was the problem, but the other guys on my left are also "bassier"...maybe that's the word I am looking for...because when I practice, of course I can hear myself fine. Everyone in the section is playing Bel Cantos...so I guess what I am looking for is more bass, maybe not so much volume...I just want to "feel" the notes better...does that make sense?

lucas vigor · #7 09-17-2010, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Are you judging this volume only from your own perspective or did someone else mention your volume? It is entirely possible that it only seems 1/2 volume from where your ears are in relation to your own bass.

I am going to make a point of asking the section at the next rehearsal if they can hear me or not..

lucas vigor · #8 09-23-2010, 08:43 PM

Got the BelCantos.

There is at least a 25% increase in volume and bass!

the downside. The strings are stronger, less flexible and obviously darker then the Spiros, which is what I expected. The "Mwah" is gone. Perhaps not the best strings for precision bebop where you have to do a lot of technical soloing....but awesome for bowing and classical in general, even classical pizz.

Oh, and the bow totally grabs the strings better! Using these strings makes me think my technique improved....(it did not, of course...but sure sounds better!)

Andrew Hamilton · #9 09-24-2010, 12:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lucas vigor

Got the BelCantos.

There is at least a 25% increase in volume and bass!

the downside. The strings are stronger, less flexible and obviously darker then the Spiros, which is what I expected. The "Mwah" is gone. Perhaps not the best strings for precision bebop where you have to do a lot of technical soloing....but awesome for bowing and classical in general, even classical pizz.

Oh, and the bow totally grabs the strings better! Using these strings makes me think my technique improved....(it did not, of course...but sure sounds better!)

I've tried 6 or 7 different types of strings over the years. I have Bel Cantos on both of my basses currently. Before that I used Permanents on the bottom 3 and a Bel Canto G. I really feel that the Bel Cantos offer an unsurpassed sweetness that you won't find on any other string. As you noted, there is as much oomph, but I love how they sing. Also, I think that the ease of bowing may be coming from the tension of your new strings.

If you're ever looking for more volume my Permanents never disappointing. I've also used Flat Chromes and Flexocores. Seems like the Flat Chromes and Flexocores are more dependent on your basses individual characteristics (all of this is based on my personal experience, ymmv). Sorry to type so much...I've always been the bass player yelling across bass class "How you like them Flexocores?".

lucas vigor · #10 09-24-2010, 08:06 AM

So you do agree there is more tension? Possibly I can get use to that for jazz pizz!
The spiro weichs I had on before were very hard to bow, especially in the high positions. I would get a lot of unwanted harmonics. Now, that problem seems to be totally gone! So that's a plus....but, you mentioned that they "sing" better. One thing I have noticed so far is they seem less "cello" like then the spiros did...but I guess that is good, and bad.

Eventually I am going to have to experiment with down-tuned Bel Canto solo strings.

I wonder if anyone has done that yet?

But regardless, I have always expected this bass to serve two purposes, jazz and classical...now I am realizing that you probably need to have two basses. Oh God! Upright bass is an expensive addiction!

http://www.myspace.com/lucasvigor

Andrew Hamilton · #11 09-24-2010, 01:18 PM

There are some multitasking strings out there. I can't tell you what might work better or not, but I wouldn't think the Bel Canto fit the bill. Bel Canto's are also not an extremely high tension string. A string like a Flexocore has much higher tension if I recall correctly.

Hector Wolff · #12 09-25-2010, 10:52 AM

Lucas,

I am not sure I understand what you really want.

But if you are looking for more volume, more fullness & depth, more "umph" - which I take to mean more power and aggressiveness, then I would have chosen the Evah Pirazzi regular guage.

I have these on my hybrid bass playing standard orchestra material. I think they are great, especially when it comes to Beethoven. The Evahs are in my opinion lower tension or "Softer" than the classic "Orchestra" strings like the Flexicores. But coming from Spirocore Wiechs, I imagine anything will seem stiff to you.

If what you want is the orchestra section sound, then why are you interested in a cello like sound? To me they seem at odds. If I were playing the solo literature or playing in a chamber group then I might want that sound and volume might not be important.

lucas vigor · #13 09-25-2010, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hector Wolff

Lucas,

I am not sure I understand what you really want.

But if you are looking for more volume, more fullness & depth, more "umph" - which I take to mean more power and aggressiveness, then I would have chosen the Evah Pirazzi regular guage.

I have these on my hybrid bass playing standard orchestra material. I think they are great, especially when it comes to Beethoven. The Evahs are in my opinion lower tension or "Softer" than the classic "Orchestra" strings like the Flexicores. But coming from Spirocore Wiechs, I imagine anything will seem stiff to you.

If what you want is the orchestra section sound, then why are you interested in a cello like sound? To me they seem at odds. If I were playing the solo literature or playing in a chamber group then I might want that sound and volume might not be important.

It would be nice to have one string that can do everything I want it to. Sound like a cello for real pretty stuff, be real articulate and flexible for bebop, have depth and fullness for old style swing, bluegrass, hawaiian, folk, and yet also be loud enough for an orchestra.

But since right now I am focusing on an orchestra, the string I use will have to be the most suitable for that particular gig.

Bijoux · #14 09-25-2010, 11:39 AM

I Have the EP's regulars on my carved 7/8. In my bass they sound better than the Belcantos. But I had Spiro regular before and they were also fine.
I would suggest that being that it was your first rehearsal, maybe you should give it sometime.
I see people playing with spiros, helicores, obligatos, etc, etc. And everyone pretty much get's a big sound.
Also sometimes I wonder if I can hear the other players better than myself, because a lot of times when I think thta I kind of played under, I get comments from the other guys that they could hear me well...
Anyway, you might wanna give another month until you get in the groove of the orchestra and then see what you need to change.
best of luck!

Hector Wolff · #15 09-25-2010, 12:30 PM

Ok, so you want do it all string, well I think many of us are looking for the same thing.

I have used these Evahs playing jazz, and particularly when acoustic I was quite happy with them. As I think has been said in the Evah string thread, depending on your bass and amp, you might have to play around a good deal to get the kind of natural, clear amplified sound you want.

I also am not unhappy with the sound when doing solo works, like the cello suites - though I have to admit they would not be my first choice. I would probably prefer the Belcantos for that kind of playing.

I have a set of Belcantos that I will try out next year. But for now I am happily on my second set of Evahs.

lucas vigor · #16 09-26-2010, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bijoux

I Have the EP's regulars on my carved 7/8. In my bass they sound better than the Belcantos. But I had Spiro regular before and they were also fine.
I would suggest that being that it was your first rehearsal, maybe you should give it sometime.
I see people playing with spiros, helicores, obligatos, etc, etc. And everyone pretty much get's a big sound.
Also sometimes I wonder if I can hear the other players better than myself, because a lot of times when I think thta I kind of played under, I get comments from the other guys that they could hear me well...
Anyway, you might wanna give another month until you get in the groove of the orchestra and then see what you need to change.
best of luck!

I had considered this, based on other comments here...but I also swapped basses with my neighboor, and his bass was louder! But on the second rehearsal he said he could hear me better, and I could also hear myself better!

Don Higdon · #17 09-26-2010, 08:17 PM

Lucky's Viagra: Sounds like you've answered your own question. The BC's are doing it, you're concentrating on arco, so why do you need to keep buying strings? I have BC's on a carved New Standard, an 1860 Jacquet, and a Schnitzer walnut bass. Each sounds great. I have no reason to buy another string.
As for arco on the Weichs, I'm not at all surprised at your experience. As for the comparative tension of the BC's, get used to it. The anomaly is the Weichs. The BC's are normal.

lucas vigor · #18 09-27-2010, 07:19 AM

I am going to stick with the Bel Cantos for a while...the problem is NOT buying strings! The problem is, that (after I think I have earned it and truly deserved it) I am going to have to buy another BASS! That one will be a lower priced, but carved top bass...which will be used for classical and will have the Bel Cantos...but my current bass (on which I always use a PUP anyway for jazz and Hawaiian gigs) will have the spiros...and I did a little research on Renaud Garcia-Fons and found out he uses a Spiro Weich E, but down tunes Spiro solos on the A D and G (which is what I suspected)...and he has very low action...
Anyway, all of this is a year away at this point!