Short Sustain, Low Growl, but BRIGHT!

[pbasswil]

Does this exist in a DB string??:
Short Sustain, Low Growl, but: Bright and Loud!

This is for old school jazz pizz. I may well end up with a New Standard Cleveland later this year; I'll want a string with real good cut in the highs and high-mids to match the ample pillow on the bottom.

My impression is that the "anti-Spirocore", pseudo old-school strings are mostly pretty dark sounding.

I'm boggled combing thru the endless archives about DB strings. The answer is probably in there somewhere, but I haven't found it yet.

Thanks for any/all ideas!

[Marc Piane]

What do you mean by bright? I guess I think of the brightness and the growl as one thing.

[pbasswil]

Originally Posted by fingers

What do you mean by bright? I guess I think of the brightness and the growl as one thing.

Ah, I suspect there are a lot of these subjective terms that mean different things to different people.

What I call growl is that kind of grindy "grrrr" sound when, for instance, you play low notes on Spirocores. You can sort of control it by how hard you hold the strings against the finger board.
While growl "speaks" in the mids and lower-highs, I see it as a separate thing from the actual brightness/cut of the string. Some strings are a lot smoother against the fingerboard, regardless of how bright they are.

That's just my take, though.

[Michael Glynn]

Perhaps solid-core steel strings? Like Thomastik Precision, Pirastro Chromcor, or LaBella 610.

In general, these seem to be stiff and have intonation problems. Thomastik even specifically recommends against their Precision strings for bass pizz. Hopefully Francois will chime in with his thoughts.

In any case, you may be better served with setup adjustments than extreme string choices. Are you getting the Cleveland used? In this case, maybe wait and see how it sounds with its current strings and see what you like or dislike about them. If you are buying a new Cleveland you may want to contact Arnold and get his advice on setup/string options to get the sound you want.

[Francois Blais]

Originally Posted by Michael Glynn

Perhaps solid-core steel strings? Like Thomastik Precision, Pirastro Chromcor, or LaBella 610.

In general, these seem to be stiff and have intonation problems. Thomastik even specifically recommends against their Precision strings for bass pizz. Hopefully Francois will chime in with his thoughts.

Bright strings usually (or all) have very little or no damping material in their construction.
This usually also means longer sustain and growl.
So getting only brightness appears a difficult task, IMHO.
From the strings listed above, I think the 610s would be the nearest candidate, but be prepared for the extreme stiffness!

Other than that: a higher action is likely to reduce the sustain, so Spirocores could maybe do the trick.
But then again, be prepared for the left hand effort!

[pbasswil]

Ah, this is good information, guys. The wheels are starting to turn in my head.

It was dawning on me that maybe I needed to look away from the synthetics (on average, dark), and back toward the steel orchestral strings.

Was not familiar with LaBella 610s (holy cow, cheap!!). But they come in rope-core and steel-core; how will they differ?
François, your warning about extreme stiffness is daunting! :^{

Was just looking at Pirastro's catalog, and they describe Permanents as "Brilliant, Clear...; High Elasticity and Easy Response." Would they be a good candidate?

[pbasswil]

Originally Posted by Michael Glynn

Perhaps solid-core steel strings? Like Thomastik Precision, Pirastro Chromcor, or LaBella 610.

Maybe... must investigate.

Originally Posted by Michael Glynn

In any case, you may be better served with setup adjustments than extreme string choices. Are you getting the Cleveland used? In this case, maybe wait and see how it sounds with its current strings and see what you like or dislike about them. If you are buying a new Cleveland you may want to contact Arnold and get his advice on setup/string options to get the sound you want.

I'm planning ahead here, nothing's decided yet; but I may well end up ordering a new Cleveland. I would certainly consult with Arnold. Meanwhile, I'm ready to try a new set on my Eminence -- as sort of preliminary research.

I like great impact, short sustain, am not a fan of Spiro growl, but want to hear the pitch loud and clear.

I currently have a set of Helicore Orchestras on the Em. I like their short sustain, but would like more cut, and a little less wooliness (indistinct pitch) on the E and A.

[Jason Sypher]

I think of Dominants, but it depends on the bass.

[Marc Piane]

DURRL gets a pretty growly, sustainy, tone with Doms.

[pbasswil]

Originally Posted by fingers

DURRL gets a pretty growly, sustainy, tone with Doms.

Ah, and me wanting non-growly, and short sustain. :^/

How's he doing with breakage?

[Marc Piane]

I think he's doing well. I tried them for a bit and broke two A string in a 3 month span. Gave up.

My suggestions is either Evahs or guts.

If you are really wanting the old school sound guts are it.

I have Evahs on one of my basses and they are pretty dark with a nice thump. I'm not sure I'd call them bright but they have a resounding 'click' on the attack of the note. They are a little growly when they are new but that settles down. I'd call the tone new/old school.

[JeffKissell]

Growl has a lot to do with left hand technique. I think most people use Spirocores and low string heights with the intention of enhancing the growl, but any string can be played without the "MWAH!" especially if you raise the string height and play on your fingertips with clean stops. I think that would probably do more than any string choice.

Sticking with steel core, Superflexibles, Helicore hybrids or Pirastro Permanents would all be bright enough if the Spiros are too much.

FWIW-I can make the gut strings on my bass growl, even the unwound ones if I really try.
-J

[Jason Sypher]

It's true, its a lot about technique....and set up.

[pbasswil]

I'm gobbling up all these interesting perspectives -- keep 'em coming!

Still curious about Permanents.
Pirastro's catalog describes Permanents as "Brilliant, Clear...; High Elasticity and Easy Response." Can anybody confirm that?

Are they of modest sustain? (Remember I'm looking for the energy to be at the start of the note, not drawn out.)

[Bobby King]

Permanants might be good. An orchestral-type string will usually have a shorter sustain, and less growl. So maybe look for a bright orchestral string. I remember thinking that Helicore Orchestra medium strings weren't bad for pizz, not too dark either.

[pbasswil]

Originally Posted by Bobby King

Permanants might be good. An orchestral-type string will usually have a shorter sustain, and less growl. So maybe look for a bright orchestral string. I remember thinking that Helicore Orchestra medium strings weren't bad for pizz, not too dark either.

Thanks Bobby. That's about what I've started to think.

I like the Helicore Orchestras quite a bit. They're just a little indistinct on the lower strings (at least on my Eminence). If I could get a little more overall highend cut (without adding too much growl or sustain), I'd take that too.

[pbasswil]

Still curious: About those bargain LaBella 610s, which, it turns out, come in rope-core and steel-core. How will those cores differ, in tone and playability?

Thanks.

[Francois Blais]

Originally Posted by pbasswil

Still curious: About those bargain LaBella 610s, which, it turns out, come in rope-core and steel-core. How will those cores differ, in tone and playability?

Thanks.

The rope-core is more flexible than the (full) steel-core.
But not that much more flexible...

Originally Posted by pbasswil

Was just looking at Pirastro's catalog, and they describe Permanents as "Brilliant, Clear...; High Elasticity and Easy Response." Would they be a good candidate?

The top strings are brighter, but certainly not the A & E, IMHO.

Maybe heavy gauge Orchestral Helicores might work for you.
(and they'd be much more playable than LaBellas)

Another candidate is the Super-sensitive Red Labels.
Another full steel core, bright tone, not much sustain, but could stiff under the left hand. (but maybe not really worse then heavy gauge Helicores)
Bobby King could talk a bit about them; he has (had?) a set recently.

[Phil Rowan]

+1 for set up/technique affecting things. If your string height's pretty high the sound produced tends to be more thumpy/percussive in nature (of course, if you do have a high string height, ideally you'll have a lighter tensioned string to make things easier/more sense). And I agree with there being left hand technique to help with this, but there's also some right hand technique too. You can pizz so that your pizzing finger winds up on the fingerboard, which results in the string bouncing a certain way that might create such a growl. OTOH, there's also a way of plucking where you're actually drawing the string away form the fingerboard, in away approaching the string from below and pulling it up/to the side (watch some old videos where you can see the bassist's right hand clearly and you might see what I'm talking about.. it's kinda like when a classical bassist does a pizz, resulting in that big, round sound). I sometimes do this when I play my Lang (strung w/ Evah regs), to get them to sound even closer to gut. Edit - Of course, this is all affected by what height the strings are set at as well as what jmpiwonka states in the post below.

All this stuff I'm talking about makes me think of a darker sound than the OP is hearing.. so I don't know, really. To have short sustain while keeping things as bright as the OP wants (what with the capitalized bright in the title).. not sure, but I'd be into finding out. Maybe Spiro Solos? I only have experience with the A/G, but because it's so thin I found it to be pretty bright.. and they're light tension so you can jack up the string height.. then again, raising string height may result in a slightly darker tone even though it achieves the "short sustain" effect. Going around in circles here..

[jmpiwonka]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

It's true, its a lot about technique....and set up.

yeah this.

if you're getting a bass from Arnold then maybe you can describe to him the sound you want...perhaps he can put scoop in the fb to make it a little easier to play without all the growl...