the sound vs. the fury

[Threeviews]

Hello, everyone...

First of all, I apologize if this comes across as another "solve my particular problems for me" thread. It's not my intention...

Anyway, it's time for me to be changing strings again (the weichs are getting pretty unresponsive). And I'm torn between--on the one hand--the sound I'd like to hear from my bass and--on the other--the sound I think would best serve my ensemble playing. This is what I wanted to ask you all about.

For example, while others' descriptions of Obligatos--not to mention velvet...--sound alluring to me, I am beginning to think that the kind of playing I do is probably better served by a brighter, all-steel string. I fear that my melodic playing would be buried by the swarms of Diz and (alternately) Scruggs impersonators amid which I seem always to find myself, were I to switch to a warmer, 'slower' string (which might incidentally be easier on the orthopaedics...).

While (of course) I'd be interested in any string 'prescriptions' you may have for me, my main question is how any of you balance these two ideals in your own string choices: THE sound vs. the pragmatic concerns that arise from your day-to-day playing or just from that part of your sound that comes from you (that most sublime mystery of musicianship ).

As an analogy, I keep thinking of mastering a recording. Just going track-by-track and getting a good sound for each instrument is not enough...you have to 'set' each sound in the mix, which often means dialing in a sound that is not what you'd consider pleasant by itself. This is the sort of thing I'm mulling over now, trying to decide how best to allocate this pocketful of sweaty cash the father-of-the-bride handed me yesterday.

Thanks in advance!

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by TRICLOPS

While (of course) I'd be interested in any string 'prescriptions' you may have for me, my main question is how any of you balance these two ideals in your own string choices: THE sound vs. the pragmatic concerns that arise from your day-to-day playing or just from that part of your sound that comes from you (that most sublime mystery of musicianship ).

You've just described very well the dilemma we all face with strings. Lots of strings sound good for playing alone, but how many of us have regular solo gigs? Like so much of life, I think the best we can hope to do is to make the best compromise we can that allows us to be happy both alone and in company. At the university, I hang out a fair bit with Sid King, who is a great orchestral player, and we've had many discussions about this. For playing in an orchestral section, you want a sound that blends...but often, the string that blends into a section well won't cut through in situations where that is desired. The situation is especially complicated when one person wants to play orchestral music and jazz. There are hybrid strings out there, but I don't know that I've ever met anyone who feels that they aren't stronger in one realm than the other.

OTOH, if you're playing primarily in one style and are having trouble deciding which way to go, I'd just look at what your priorities are. Where is it most important for your sound to sound good to you: in your living room, or on the bandstand? In my case, I always felt that if a string wasn't working for me on the bandstand, it was time to go string shopping. I have to say, though, that when I find a string that works for me in live settings, I usually like (or can learn to like) the way it sounds solo as well. For me that means a very tense, live string with lots of punch in the mids. At first, this sound can be very disconcerting because it brings all of the flaws in my playing right out in the open. In the long run, though, this turns out to be a wonderful learning opportunity.

As an analogy, I keep thinking of mastering a recording. Just going track-by-track and getting a good sound for each instrument is not enough...you have to 'set' each sound in the mix, which often means dialing in a sound that is not what you'd consider pleasant by itself. This is the sort of thing I'm mulling over now, trying to decide how best to allocate this pocketful of sweaty cash the father-of-the-bride handed me yesterday.

This is a good analogy, although I usually invoke it to descibe amplified sound for ensembles. In super loud settings, I always set the sound brighter and tighter than I would if I were playing solo, with a lot of low lows rolled off so I can be heard. For quieter playing, I'll almost always choose a somewhat darker sound that is more relaxed, and let the fingers do the rest.

I have to say, though, that there is an awful lot of gear lust that has happened (in my case, at least) because I wasn't happy with what I was getting out of my hands and ear.

[Bobby King]

It's funny, my own experiences are different than Chris', but there are so many differing opinions about this stuff.

I find that the darker, more percussive sound that a gut (or gut-like) string produces is heard and felt best both live and on recordings. (Likewise, flatwound electric bass strings achieve the same effect.) Too many upper frequencies in the bass sound can conflict with those naturally present in other instruments.

But, bassists have different bass "voices". Some prefer a brighter,sustaining, and more singing sound. Others like a punchy, percussive tone. And the context of the music be played will allow for different bass sounds as well.

I think for those who prefer the steel sound, midrange emphasis is important. For those into gut and a darker tone, a faster decay is part of the picture. Too much low end coupled with too much sustain is a mud recipe.

In recording, it's important for the engineer to understand what type of bass sound you're going for. For punch, dynamic and ribbon mics are best. Condensers give more highs, and capture more "air" and the sustaining qualities.

All of the above is IMFO.

[jlilley]

For example, while others' descriptions of Obligatos--not to mention velvet...--sound alluring to me, I am beginning to think that the kind of playing I do is probably better served by a brighter, all-steel string. I fear that my melodic playing would be buried by the swarms of Diz and (alternately) Scruggs impersonators amid which I seem always to find myself, were I to switch to a warmer, 'slower' string (which might incidentally be easier on the orthopaedics...).

In terms of Velvets and melodic playing...
I got to hear David Friesen play my bass with Animas on it, in an group setting, last night. If you aren't familar with his playing, I would describe it as very melodic and his sound really came across. He commented on how good my bass sounded with the Animas (which is saying something considering how loyal he is to Tomastik).
Anyway, good luck on the search and I hope this helps a little.
John

[FidgetStone]

Though I am less experienced and far less accomplished than Chris, I agree very much with his thoughts. My situation is that I try to play an upright in a church pop band where slab would almost always be a better fit, so I am in a constant battle to cut through the mix. (Increasinly often I am having to resort to slab because of the song choices but that's a different thread for another time)

I have had Obligatos and Velvet 180s, both of which I like better in my living room than my current set up. I like the warmer, yet still modern-ish sound of newer hybrid strings.

My current set up cuts better in the mix however and still sounds good, though perhaps not THE best in my livingroom. Specifically I am using Pirastro Flat Chromesteels for the D and G and Spirocore Mittles for E and A. I like the FCS A string a bit better than the Spiro and I will go back to it. The spiro E is stronger than the FCS E and matches well.

The FCS D & G are still metalic enough to cut through the mix but are not as nasal and buzzy as spiros. They also bow very nicely.

For my bass the best "compromise" string set so far is FCS A, D & G and Spiro Mittle E.

Good luck.

[Ed Fuqua]

Being the current poster boy for Animas

I dunno, they pretty much are the way I hear my bass in my head and I don't seem to have any problem being heard. They are easy to play, easy to get a sound out of, project well and stay warm and full. What's not to like?

[Andy Allen]

Originally Posted by FidgetStone

...My current set up cuts better in the mix however and still sounds good, though perhaps not THE best in my livingroom. Specifically I am using Pirastro Flat Chromesteels for the D and G and Spirocore Mittles for E and A. I like the FCS A string a bit better than the Spiro and I will go back to it. The spiro E is stronger than the FCS E and matches well.

The FCS D & G are still metalic enough to cut through the mix but are not as nasal and buzzy as spiros. They also bow very nicely.

I went to see a friend play recently and the bass player was using a full set of FlatChromeSteels. As well as being a great player, he sounded good and fit-with/cut-through the band very well (pno, bass, dms, flute, 2x trmbn). I liked the FCS when I tried them, but felt they lacked some 'meat' on my bass. This bass player had an old german bass, which no doubt complemented the FCS with plenty of 'meat' of its own.

I too have experienced the 'living-room syndrome.' Flexocores, for instance, sounded great on my bass when practicing, but were problematic live. Obligatos were a disaster live, but better at home. Spiro orch/reds, on the other hand sound great live, but not at home (except the E - my favourite). The compromise for me is Dominants, which work well for both the 'home' and the 'away' team

Andy

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Being the current poster boy for Animas

I dunno, they pretty much are the way I hear my bass in my head and I don't seem to have any problem being heard. They are easy to play, easy to get a sound out of, project well and stay warm and full. What's not to like?

+1.... they sound great in my room, and they sound great in a big hall, and everything in between. Duos, big bands, doesn't matter. That hasn't been my experience with other strings.

Can I be on the poster too?

[Ed Fuqua]

Sure, we prolly should figger out what we're gonna wear...

[Bobby King]

Do you Anima poster boys play much arco? That's my only gripe with them -- you can bow them but they're really not too great, arco-wise.

[Ed Fuqua]

I don't play much, but my teacher does. He thinks they have a nice PC vibe.

[Anonymous75966]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

I don't play much [arco], but my teacher does. He thinks they have a nice PC vibe.

I ran out and bought a 1st-gen set of gut Animas and didn't like them much. A friend of mine has a newer set, and I think they're much better strings: incredibly loud and punchy pizz fundamental, and a much more useable arco, but I wouldn't say 'great'. 'PC vibe' is a good description - 16th notes get pretty scratchy and I wouldn't want to play a Mozart symphony on them.

I've found that as I've got more experienced, I prefer playing on brighter strings. So what I've mostly used in the last few years has shifted from Helicore Orch, to Permanents, to the totally unglamorous and pedestrian Spirocore Medium. I'm getting a surprisingly good arco sound out of them these days, so my bow arm must have improved - there's a little bit of high end fizzle, but I can live with that.

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

For me that means a very tense, live string with lots of punch in the mids. At first, this sound can be very disconcerting because it brings all of the flaws in my playing right out in the open. In the long run, though, this turns out to be a wonderful learning opportunity.

Ain't that the truth.

To continue the audio analogy, you can't put back what ain't there in the first place - I'd rather play steel strings with more colours in them than great sounding gut strings that only sound like themselves. You can always change your articulation or EQ if need be. In my experience, Spiros also have way more fundamental out in the audience than on top of the bass, and they have a huge, deep recorded sound with the right placement.

That's just me, though - although I play classical and jazz jobs, most of what I do is contemporary repertoire and Mark Dresser-esque improv, so I need the volume and brightness. I've found the Spiros to be a surprisingly good compromise. I say don't sweat it.

[Ed Fuqua]

Originally Posted by the_other

I've found that as I've got more experienced, I prefer playing on brighter strings.

Gee, maybe one of these days, I'll be more experienced.

[Marcus Johnson]

Originally Posted by Bobby King

Do you Anima poster boys play much arco? That's my only gripe with them -- you can bow them but they're really not too great, arco-wise.

Fair amount. I think they're okay for what I do....jazz arco. Tougher than Obligatos, that's for damn sure.

[Aaron Saunders]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Gee, maybe one of these days, I'll be more experienced.

[ctxbass]

Originally Posted by the_other

I'd rather play steel strings with more colours in them than great sounding gut strings that only sound like themselves.

??????? Steel strings don't only sound like themselves?
I find gut strings to have a more colors than steel.

You can always change your articulation or EQ if need be.

You can if you use an amp.

[Anonymous75966]

Originally Posted by Ed Fuqua

Gee, maybe one of these days, I'll be more experienced.

Aw, come on man. There was no put-down intended, I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about my personal path and what personally suits the music I'm personally interested in, which I was pretty specific about. Anyway I said I liked the new Animas. You takin the P?

Originally Posted by the_other

You can always change your articulation or EQ if need be.

Or if you don't - with the emphasis on articulation. You can shape the envelope of a pizz note with your hands - change the release of the LH to shorten the decay, or change the RH placement and attack. Anybody who has to play orchestra pizz versus jazz pizz does this instinctively. I do this all the time on jazz gigs - I shape phrases by damping the LH or brightening the sound with both hands. I remember reading an interview with Ben Allison a long time ago, saying that's how he got a gut-like sound out of Spiros. If you don't believe me try it.

Playing arco you can "EQ" any pitch by controlling bow speed, placement and pressure - again, something that orchestra players learn sort of by osmosis, but which anyone can isolate and practice.

Originally Posted by ctxbass

??????? Steel strings don't only sound like themselves?
I find gut strings to have a more colors than steel.

OK, this may be a piddly hair-splitting point. Gut sounds great; no argument from me. It has a distinctive, rich, complex tone, again, no argument. On the other hand, a player like Dresser (who's a diehard Spiro user) can get a really thumpy, woody jazz pizz out of his bass, as well as really high harmonics (pizz and arco), flautando or subharmonic arco, et cetera - all that experimental doodah. That's the kind of stuff I work with at least part of the time, and that's what I'm talking about when I said 'more colors.'

Hey, I'm continually a little embarassed and surprised that I've ended up playing such pedestrian strings, and I wish I could find something more interesting, but they work for me - just wanted to pass on my 0.02 to the OP. I had no idea people would get so touchy.

[Danko]

Originally Posted by Threeviews

Hello, everyone...

-snip-

Without going into detail about the strings... I'd say "buy the string that sounds best to YOU!". You are the one who'll be playing that string, and if it responds best to your liking and has that sound you like, you'll play better. Your enemble will be happier with you.

Remember - compromise is a solution neither side is happy with. Or to qoute another wise guy "Can't please everyone, so then you gotta please yourself."

Danko

[Bobby King]

Originally Posted by Danko

Or to qoute another wise guy "Can't please everyone, so then you gotta please yourself."

Danko

I never knew Ricky Nelson was "connected".

[D McCartney]

Originally Posted by Bobby King

I never knew Ricky Nelson was "connected".

Well he went to a garden party, didn't he?