Spirocore or Belcanto for bowing

[barend]

I am using Thomastic Spirocore weich strings. Lately I practise a lot of bowing (even more than the normal pizzicato practise) and I was wondering if these strings are really suitable for bowing?

I might switch to Belcanto strings, just to try. Are these good for bowing? and how do they sound compared to the Spirocore weichs?
I like the clear sound and feel and long sustain of the Spiricores though so I am a little hesistant to switch.

[Andrew McGregor]

Well, it depends how much you want to keep your pizz sound, because Belcantos do not have a reputation as a pizz string.

Spiro Weichs are really good for your bow technique... if you can make a nice sound bowing those, you can bow anything. They're perfectly acceptable once you get the hang of it... I played Weichs in the orchestra for years. They're not the easiest, though, not by far.

I think Corelli Tungsten strings are a good compromise, but opinions vary.

[JtheJazzMan]

Belcantos are fantastic, if I only bowed Id probably have them. Unfortunately, yes, the first pizz note I played killed my love of them straight away. Dull, no sustain. Would work for an orchestra but I didnt like them for anything else.

May I suggest before you buy a new set of strings, you should buy a few types of rosin to try out. That is a much cheaper alternative, and Spiros are not forgiving when it comes to improper rosin. You may find a different type of rosin works much better.

What is the tone like? Is it scratchy or is the hair just not gripping the strings adequately? If you dont have a good bow, and upgrade may also be a consideration down the track.

The bottom line is, theres nothing wrong with spiros as an arco string, but your technique needs to be in order, and you need decent rosin and bow to match. I use spiro solos myself as an arco string, with a weich E. Yes, the E is rather tricky to bow in low positions but it will come with practice.

[William Hoffman]

i think BCs are a better string if you bow most of the time. they are the arco string imho. but they lack brightness and sustain so they aren't the best for pizz, rather dark sounding.

Spiros are a good arco string after they break in and the brightness fades. and they just get better over time. some orchestra players play a set of Spiros for many years.

there is an interesting thread here on the bowability of Spiros. Debunking the Spiro Unbowability Myth

[barend]

Thank you all for the great help.
I can conclude from your posts that the Belcantos are not for me because I play 50% pizzicato 50% arco.

Mainly I am a jazz fusion player. But I begin to like the bowing really much and want to focus more and more on classical too. I am practising two hours of bowing each day now.

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

May I suggest before you buy a new set of strings, you should buy a few types of rosin to try out. That is a much cheaper alternative, and Spiros are not forgiving when it comes to improper rosin. You may find a different type of rosin works much better.

I have tried the Nyman rosin which was too hard. Right now I am using a fresh Pops container, that is better. But I still feel I have not enough grip on the strings but that can also be because I am only playing arco for a few months now.

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

What is the tone like? Is it scratchy or is the hair just not gripping the strings adequately? If you dont have a good bow, and upgrade may also be a consideration down the track.

The tone is not too bad (although it probably can be better) only the g string sounds a bit nasal.

I think when playing both pizzicato and arco there always has to be a compromise.

[William Hoffman]

i like to mix Belcanto G and D with Spirocore Weich A and Mittel E. this is a great mix. it optimizes the very good bowability of BCs (i do most of my bowing on G and D strings) with brighter punchier Spiro sound for pizz on the E and A. best of both worlds...

[TroyK]

I'm a jazz player, but have been studying with a classical teacher this year. Her bass has Evah Pirazzis and mine has Spirocore Weichs. I thought going in that I might switch, but I'm getting by fine with the Spriocores. I play her bass now and again and it's easier for me to get a rich tone, but "acceptable" or "suitable", absolutely. Sometimes they sound down right good. I think I'm learning better because I have to pay attention. Nothing stopping me from getting around the weichs with the bow. Someday I may join the legions of EP Weich users and it might make me sound better with the stick over night, but I can wait for that day.

[barend]

I read good things about these Evah Pirazzis.

This is what the company is saying:
Evah Pirazzi ’BASS’ is an ideal string for musicians playing both Arco and Pizzicato. First and foremost the bow response is excellent and when playing pizzicato the long sustain fully and freely evolves.

Sounds promising, but then again most companys will say they have the 'ideal' string.

[Andrew McGregor]

Originally Posted by barend

The tone is not too bad (although it probably can be better) only the g string sounds a bit nasal.

They haven't played in yet... just keep at it, that will go away. Also see if shifting the soundpost slightly will help.

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by barend

I have tried the Nyman rosin which was too hard. Right now I am using a fresh Pops container, that is better. But I still feel I have not enough grip on the strings but that can also be because I am only playing arco for a few months now.

I never found nymans to work too well for me either. Pops is much better. You can easily put too much on, but for me I was putting on too little out of fear of putting on too much.

When the hair grips the E string enough for me, then I know Ive put on enough.

If you lightly hold the hair against the E string and start to pull on it, how much grip can you feel? Does to hair slide too easily?

[marvin spangles]

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Belcantos are fantastic, if I only bowed Id probably have them. Unfortunately, yes, the first pizz note I played killed my love of them straight away. Dull, no sustain.

Yes belcantos are better for bowing no contest. But I think if you work hard you can get a really good pizz sound too. There is less sustain. but they have a quality of their own that I like on my La Scala. I used to swap back and forth between spiros and belcantos depending on whether the gig is jazz or classical. Now,more often than not, I keep the Belcantos on. The only compromise is a Stark E .

[Uncletoad]

I like the palate of sounds I can wring out of a set of Spirocores with the bow. They can be big and fat with decent blend or gritty and cutting with lots of nasty to mix with that low end.

The temptation to work with more arco friendly strings is a strong one however in the course of learning allowing your gear to substitute for shed time is not wise. Find the sound in what you have. It's there.

Use the strings that make you sound the way you want as much of the time as possible. Arco heavy players can live with the sound of Belcantos on their occasional foray into pizz and Pizz heavy players can learn to get a respectable arco tone from Spirocores.

I use Oak rosin in soft year round on my Spirocores. It's become my favorite over pops which I used before I found the Oak. Grabs like crazy, not to noisy.

[JtheJazzMan]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I use Oak rosin in medium year round on my Spirocores. It's become my favorite over pops which I used before I found the Oak. Grabs like crazy, not to noisy.

Im assuming thats the stuff from gregorianstrings.com ?

Is the soft version worth buying? Thinking of buying some, but I need to be sure what I want before getting a single container of rosin shipped across the planet.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

Im assuming thats the stuff from gregorianstrings.com ?

Is the soft version worth buying? Thinking of buying some, but I need to be sure what I want before getting a single container of rosin shipped across the planet.

Sorry, I wrote the wrong thing...all I use is the SOFT not the medium. I use it year round. duhhh go back and change that post....

[barend]

Originally Posted by Andrew McGregor

They haven't played in yet... just keep at it, that will go away. Also see if shifting the soundpost slightly will help.

How long does it take for the strings to be played in? I play on this set for three or four months now for two or three hours a day. I guess they should be played in by now.

What do you mean by shifting the soundpost?

[Downright_Low]

Originally Posted by JtheJazzMan

. I use spiro solos myself as an arco string, with a weich E. Yes, the E is rather tricky to bow in low positions but it will come with practice.

Are the Weich strings heavier than the Solo at Orchestral tuning? That would sound like a nice set with a heavier E down there.

[JtheJazzMan]

Yeh the weichs are heavier and stiffer. The solos tuned down feel great.

I tried a full set of solos on my flatback but the E string lost a lot of power and volume. So for my current main bass I put the weich on, though Im contemplating trying a solo E (F#) string, to see how it is under the bow. Or more likely I just need more shed time

Oh and the G string is very thin compared to anything else, and has a particular airy metallic sound under the bow, which some people may not like.

[Andrew McGregor]

Originally Posted by barend

How long does it take for the strings to be played in? I play on this set for three or four months now for two or three hours a day. I guess they should be played in by now.

What do you mean by shifting the soundpost?

Hmm... ok, they should be there by now.

If spiros sound nasal, then it's probably that your bass sounds a bit nasal in general... in which case, a luthier can probably fix that by moving the soundpost a little.

[William Hoffman]

Originally Posted by marvin spangles

Yes belcantos are better for bowing no contest. But I think if you work hard you can get a really good pizz sound too. There is less sustain. but they have a quality of their own that I like on my La Scala. I used to swap back and forth between spiros and belcantos depending on whether the gig is jazz or classical. Now,more often than not, I keep the Belcantos on. The only compromise is a Stark E .

i had a full set of belcantos and liked the pizz sound too when practicing at home but i found that the other musicians on stage couldn't hear me well. i don't know exactly why that was, but the particular bass had at that time a muddy, dark sound.

to compensate for that, i've since brightened the sound up with a new, better fitted sound post set in a new position directly in line with the bridge foot. i've also gone over to using Spiros on the E and A, which are brighter, more responsive, than the belcantos.

do/did you have this issue at all with the softer, darker sound and if so how did you deal with it?

[Uncletoad]

I used a mixed set of Belcanto D/G and Spiro E/A mittel for quite awhile and liked that very much. I noticed that the D/G tone was nice and old school punchy but at times didn't deliver the cut I was looking for out of a string when the mix was dense. They were also just a touch slow pizz.

Likewise arco the belcanto are glorious beautiful strings. On basses I've giged with that hasn't translated as well on the gig though. Section playing I'm sure they'd be lovely, solo, divine however mixing arco and pizz in a bunch of other racket where what you do should be blending or sticking out alternately I found spiros to do a better job.

I now use a full set of spiros because I can get what I want on the job with them. They don't sound that nice at home under the bow but with a bunch of people they really work.

I think they are very articulate. They just don't give you an inch of slack. When you suck, everyone knows it. So you learn to not suck. That's a good thing.