SPIROCORE ORCHESTRA OR HELICORE HYBRID: MORE BOWABLE?

[pao_bass]

any one here have experience using either hybrids or spirocore orchestras? which bows more easily? thanks

[Johnny L]

I think the hybrids bow a little better right out of the package, but just a little.

[TroyK]

I think as jazz strings they are similar, but I don't know anyone who thinks that Helicore Hybrids are better at being stong pizzicato strings. Spirocores are the standard in that space. Either can be bowed, neither is going to make it especially easy on you.

If you need a good arco string and aren't willing to work hard at overcoming the string, you should look at arco stings. If you really need something more 50/50, there are better hybrid choices: Thomastik Superflexibles, Pirastro Permanents to name two.

[Anonymous75966]

Originally Posted by TroyK

I think as jazz strings they are similar, but I don't know anyone who thinks that Helicore Hybrids are better at being strong pizzicato strings.

I'm confused. Jazz vs pizzicato?

Hybrids bow a little easier, but they're still at better than pizz than arco. Spiros are a little harder to bow, but also louder and more durable IME.

Depends on your usage. If you're mostly playing classical, don't rule out the Helicore Orchestra, which I've found to be a dark, but usable jazz string.

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by the_other

I'm confused. Jazz vs pizzicato?

Yeah, I'm mixing my references here. Forget the jazz reference.

Pizzicato strings - every manufacturer makes one. There are probably many good ones. Spirocores are clear market favorites with people who seem to want that bright, strong sustain string (often jazz players). They, by reputation are more difficult to bow, but as people will point out, it can be done. I think and I've heard other people say that Helicore Hybrids are pizzicato strings, moreso than hybrid strings.

Arco strings - Flexicore, Helicore Orchestral, Jargars and others. Designed to be used with the bow. Typically short sustain and darker sound when played pizzicato.

Hybrid strings - The best or worst of both worlds. I think that there are some good ones in the market. I listed a couple, but certainly Dominants, Obligatos, Kolsteins, Corellis....

Magic strings - Read the forums long enough and you'll find that in every category of gear there are magic bullets. Strings that can do it all and learn tunes for you. Amps that are 1 pound, fit into your shirt pocket and even make the soprano sax player play in tune.

Call me old fashioned, but none of these things are magic, they are all one thing or another or something in between and you'll give up something to get something else. Take your pick. If you're a symphony guy, it's easy. If you don't own a bow and want tone like Ron Carter in the 70's, your choices are narrow. If you want it all, it's about picking your compromises and trying to remain hopeful.

Re: Jazz strings. There seem to be two sounds associated with jazz. Spirocores and pure gut. Which sound completely opposite of each other. When I said "jazz strings" earlier and in my "jazz strings" post, I was talking about bright sustainy, un-arco friendly, articulate metal strings.

There are people and I've been one of them, who play jazz on arco strings and tend to prefer that sound. A lot people people right now are spending their time with various hybrid and magic string combinations to either try to get the best of both worlds or maybe because that standard of sound is changing. Neither electric bass-esque or gut thump (felt more than heard).

Don't ask me, I'm lost. I've played mostly with hybrids, went to pure arco strings and am going to try to live with pizzicato strings for a while to see what happens. I can argue for or against each.

What I intended to answer to the original poster was that I think that Spirocores and H Hybrids are similar arco, but that Spirocores are better pizz strings..better strings in general. He didn't say what he was going to be using them for or what sound he wanted to hear, but if arco was a major criteria for him, he might be on the wrong end of the spectrum.

If you clarify, you might get a better and shorter answer. You might also spend a few hours reading the last 5 years of discussion on this. There's tons of information out there. Beware of the magic strings..and pickups..and amps.

[damonsmith]

The main difficulty in bowing Spirocores is how active the overtones are.
Many of the musicians for whom the overtone series is a big part of their work( Joelle Leandre, Barre Phillips, Mark Dresser, John Lindberg, Stefano Scodanibbio, Barry Guy, Fernando Grillo and many others) use Spirocores. Once you understand how to control those overtones you have so many choices in terms of timbre.
You can get so many variations on a legit arco tone not to mention all the various overtones, subtones and multiphonics available.
I tend to play mostly arco, and these are my favorite strings.

[pao_bass]

ok, thanks for the info about those strings.

You know, right now, I'm currently using helicore arco strings on my bass. I've been using them for about a year now. I think they bow really great, but for my ear, the pizz sound is a bit dead/lacks punch acoustically.

I'm a college doublebass major so in terms of curriculum, we play arco. But me, being the stubborn kid, I prefer playing jazz more than anything else. I don't want to be caught dead playing in the symphony (my apologies). I love being spontaneous. Now, I'm planning to change my strings.

I recently ordered a set of d'addario hybrids heavy gauge to see if it can work for my situation. And, as I'm waiting for them to arrive any day now (they haven't arrived yet), my adventurous side got the better of me, I got my cell phone, and then ordered a set of medium spirocores. Now I feel more suspense.

Plan A: practice more bowing to get the feel of the new strings

[pao_bass]

can I get a sound closer to Ron carter's with the spirocores compared to the helicore arco or hybrid?

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by pao_bass

can I get a sound closer to Ron carter's with the spirocores compared to the helicore arco or hybrid?

Hybrid will be closer to that sound. Spend some time with both of the sets you ordered and let us know how it turns out for you.

[pao_bass]

ive just received and instelled the hybrids (heavy gauge) 2 days ago, as far as I'm concerned, my response is

shifting from helicore arcos, I notice that the hybrids bow just as easily (so far at least) with a much better pizz sound with a sort of a throaty growl that comes with it as you pluck the strings, especially with little glissandos (at least with my bass). That of course comes with a lot of additional sustain when playing arco.

arco-wise, I think there is no difficulty (compared to helicore arco) at all as I've read through a storch-hrabe etude and some simandl book II etudes as well with a smile on my face afterwards.

The spirocores that ive ordered hasn't arrived yet, but as of now, all I can say is that I will stick with my hybrids for the time being.

[rdwhit]

Nick LLoyd in cincinnati turned me on to these strings.I believe them to be the best crossover or"hybrid" string out there.Nick told me he doesn't understand why nobody talks about them.They don't have the nasty scratchy bowed overtones of other alledged hybrid strings.they have plenty of sustain for jazz.the're a little bright for orch playing,but not out of place like spirocore or helicore hybrids.The tention is also low,so they are better than what many folks like about corelis(sp?),and maybe a little louder.More people need to know about these strings IMHO.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by pao_bass

ok, thanks for the info about those strings.

You know, right now, I'm currently using helicore arco strings on my bass. I've been using them for about a year now. I think they bow really great, but for my ear, the pizz sound is a bit dead/lacks punch acoustically.

I'm a college doublebass major so in terms of curriculum, we play arco. But me, being the stubborn kid, I prefer playing jazz more than anything else. I don't want to be caught dead playing in the symphony (my apologies). I love being spontaneous. Now, I'm planning to change my strings.

I recently ordered a set of d'addario hybrids heavy gauge to see if it can work for my situation. And, as I'm waiting for them to arrive any day now (they haven't arrived yet), my adventurous side got the better of me, I got my cell phone, and then ordered a set of medium spirocores. Now I feel more suspense.

Plan A: practice more bowing to get the feel of the new strings

You don't want to be caught dead playing in the symphony? Gee, do you think you are good enough to even make the final audition rounds to get into a symphony? I never felt that strong against it when I was younger, I just went a different way. Now that I am playing in two Orchestras locally and an occassional Chamber Orchestra I see how difficult it is to land a professional Symphony job. I have seen some of the top players play in my office trying out Basses. These guys go up against 100-200 players to get a job and if the make the finals, it's a win in my book.

If you want to bow, get a bowing string. Most of the pros use Flexocor. Either regular or Stark or Original if not a mixture to match what their Bass needs or playing style.

I don't know how good the orchestras are in your area but here in USA "most" of the great Jazz players you admire couldn't even win a sub position in one of the major orchestras. When a Jazz player needs lessons, he calls one of the symphony cats and that's a fact.

[pao_bass]

sorry for the misuse, but I think a better way of rewriting that one sentence in my post is that I don't want to get caught playing professionally with an orchestra... To put it in another way, musically speaking, Emotionally, I just don't get moved by classical music, unlike jazz...

yup, I agree that if a player wants to learn and enhance his pure technique, he must go for classical based instruction.
That's what I'm in to now. Technically, yes, but musically, it is a different story

I know how challenging it is to get into a professional symphony orchestra there in the USA, as you and my teacher said, you compete against 100-200 people, but here, in the Philippines, you want a bass slot in the top orchestra? If you go up against 4-5 people, hell, thats a whole lot!

I'd much prefer to land jobs as a sideman or a session artist, though...
hope you understand

no offense to the symphony cats, but I guess it has something to do with my personality...