Spiros arco!

[bejoyous]

Well, I've finished my 20 year journey with synthetic core strings and I'm back to steel.

I originally switched to Doms with a Spiro long-C from Original Flatchromes because Joel Q was using them at the time. They sounded great and I could lower the action to a more playable height. At that time I had a really nice 150+ year old Italian bass.

Then I had 12 years of not playing due to a hand injury (but that's another story). When I got a bass again, it had Helicores on it. Yuck. Way too quiet and the pizz was half the volume of the arco. They just didn't make the bass sound good. But then again, it was a 2 year old bass that needed a lot of tweaking.

Obligatos then came out so I tried a full set of those. They were a huge improvement from the Helicores. I really liked the sound that came out of the bass but the rolling thing got to me after a while as it made fast passages too muddy. Loved the pizz notes. They died a quick death when they reached 10 months old.

Replaced them with Dominants. The roll was gone but the sound wasn't as sweet as the Obi's. I had to be very careful of the bow placement or there would be a squeak. They too died a rapid death around the 11 month mark.

Then Evahs and Bel Cantos came out about the same time. I read all the pros and cons on TB and went with the EP's. I guess I wasn't ready for a steel string. Wow, I thought I had come home. Punchiness of the Dominants, sweet tone of the Obligatos, full loud volume, great pizz, easy on the hands, speaks quickly and easily with the bow, mellow like gut yet bright for solo stuff with a great core fundamental at the bottom.

I went through 2 sets of these and, you guessed it, they died a rapid death around the one year mark. (Looking at the ball end with a jeweler's loop, there seems to be hundreds or extremely small nylon filaments that make up the core of these strings. I think what causes synthetic core strings to die quickly is the filaments break bit by bit in the core and when a certain percentage are broken, the string goes bad.)

At the end of the second set's life I was noticing the sound was getting duller and duller. I gave them a deep cleaning by slacking the tension and bending the string around my finger to gap the winding while I used methyl hydrate on a terry cloth to remove the dirt. This improved the sound greatly but it didn't bring back the volume. Also, I was noticing that the harmonics weren't quite in tune and sometimes notes were out of tune that I was certain I had put down my finger in the right place. Additionally, after hearing some recordings of my playing I thought, "Gee, the pizzes sound kinda plastic-y."

Then earlier this year, I was at a rehearsal for Beethoven 6th and I was the only bassist that showed up. I just couldn't hear myself and the strings felt similar to trying to run through ankle deep water. I started thinking that maybe these aren't the bee's knees that I thought they were. Surely there must be a string that sound great, is deep yet bright, sounds fine either pizz or arco, lasts more than 10 - 12 months, etc.

After doing a bit of reading here, especially Uncle Toad's and Dr Rod's comments, I decided to try Spirocores with a Superflexible G. Also listening to Herve Jeanne's string comparison matrix really sold me. Just listen to the difference between the EP's and the Spiros!

I don't know why folks say they are just a jazz string with a scratchy bow sound. I find them to be the easiest bowing string I've ever played on. I don't have to press at all to get the string to speak. I don't hear any banjo twang, just a pure bass sound.

I put them on on October 11th with a professional gig on the 17th playing Schumann's Rhenish Symphony and Brahms' Piano Concerto No. 2. I thought I might be squeaking and squawking and my tone would stick out like a sore thumb. But, they didn't. I blended right in and had lots of volume and I wasn't tired by the end of the show like usual.

That being said, I guess I should temper my comments by saying all strings sound great compared to old dead strings. My bass has a rather short string length (100.5 cm). The Spiros are the S39 model which are meant for 4/4 sized basses so they tension is lower than most basses that are strung with Spiros. Also I use a drop-D tuning on the IV string so the tension is even lower on that string (the sound doesn't match the other strings so I think I'll get a Stark for that one soon).

Maybe the lower tension effects the bow-ability of the strings. I also use black hair with Kolstein Soft rosin plus a little skim of rosin applied directly to the strings.

Wow, I didn't think this would end up being such a novel, but I thought I should share my "discovery."

[JtheJazzMan]

Oh yes, another succumbs to the mystical arco facet of spiros.

How is the tone once you get high up in thumb position though? Or are you mainly playing orchestral work down low? How is the black hair combo working for you?

Ive just had my bow rehaired with a fine natural white hair. The difference on the bass was night and day. Spiros seem to transmit every frequency of vibration from the bow very readily, which can be good or bad depending on the tone of your bow. Much more noticeable once you get up in TP.

Anyways, congrats, you dont have to shop for strings for a good number of years now

[Wilbyman]

I played some from the cello suites tonight on my mittels/reds...I think they bow great, not as easy as obligatos but they are very strong and authoritative sounding and it is not nearly as difficult as many say.

[Phil Rowan]

I'm loving Spiro Mittels on my bass.. just had my first chance to use them in an orchestral setting last night.. good stuff. Found I didn't have to work quite as hard to put out a big sound. The D and G, while they're still breaking in and are a little bright, sound just fine.. very clear and strong tone. Page 11 (well, the whole thing, really) of the Zimmerman bowing book is perfect for breaking them in.

[davidAaronCarte]

Love the Spiros
I have a set of Belcantos lying around in a drawer that never sees the light of day
Unfortunately my Spiros usually die on me after a year

[Amin]

They are great strings, which were thought to be a string for orchestral/solo purposes...then it became a pizz-string for many..
They have lots of qualities.
First of all, great volume.
Then, the clarity: they allow you to "say" every single note...incredible articulation...it gets so easy to let the audience hear everything (just think of Figaro's Ouverture, or Haffner 4th movement, or Mendelssohn 3rd, 4th..etc..). They help the notes to come out...I can't say it properly..
It's like an Opera singer who is pronouncing very well every single word...everybody will understand what he is singing!
They have an incredible precision, so you really have to play in tune, and even little shifts must to be ok...they are not a forgiving string, at all...be aware of that.
They are clear and precise even when you play ppp... the jury will easily hear your notes (think of 3rd movement of Beethoven Symp. III, V, or Schubert IX,
For soloing (I am talking about an orchestral set anyway) they are great: a really singing and brilliant tone, but not thin and harsh (if they have broken in obviously..). Incredible harmonics, and good tension.
You have to be careful with the bow because if you do something wrong, people will hear it.
My opinion is that this is a string that helps the sound to go far,as it has clarity, volume and articulation. And all the little noises you can hear while you are playing on the instrument, are not heard from the audience 10m away...
According to me,at an audition, they can boost your abilities if you are an expert and good player.
But if I have to play in Orchestra (no matter if in section or as Principal), I play a darker string (evah pirazzi, Belcanto,etc..) because you need anyway to mix your sound with all the section,and hear one sound, not your own sound over your colleagues. (I don't have a super-dark instrument).
But if I go to an audition, I'll probably go with spiros.
Last recommendation: they need time. At the very begin they sound a little harsh. After a couple of months they sound much better.
And I was forgetting: they have a very long life...and they are not expensive. (I think much cheaper than many others strings).

Just my 2 cents.
Hope this helps.

(I am now bowing with Eudoxas, which are incredible strings, with different qualities, but this doesn't change my very positive impression of Spiros)

[TroyK]

I'm really loving Spirocores right now too, both arco and pizz. They're a little more work, but the clarity and complexity that you get out of them is simply unmatched.

That likely won't stop me from trying things now and again, but it's tough to get me away from them for very long these days.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by canuck_bass

Bejoyous, with all due respect, if you're having so much trouble with strings and finding "the sound", I'd look more at your instrument. We play basses with a 39" mensure when we're about 10 years old (no offence to you). You should really beef up the mensure to 41-42" by getting a new neck made, this will solve your sound issues.

Also, by looking at the Chandler plans it looks like your bass has a big body. With such a small string length it's not energizing the plates properly, so naturally the Spirocores (which are a heavy string) are going to be about the only thing to provide the correct amount of tension on a 1/2 size mensure.

It's like using sand as foundation for a building instead of concrete and then instead of tearing down the building, you just looking for other temporary reinforcements.

So, a normal mensure, especially for a bass that has such a large size is imperative to get a decent sound. Strings have nothing to do with it.

Fellow Canuck: Please take no offense, but I have heard awful basses with normal and longish string length. I have also heard wonderful instruments with 38 inch string length.

In instrument building there are no rules.

[Dr Rod]

Originally Posted by canuck_bass

Yes, there are actually rules. You can't make a huge bodied instrument with a tiny mensure

You are right that there are guidelines and that you can't bend the rules of physics, it is also true that 38 inches is indeed in the realm of a big cello and that it would be risky to make such an instrument and expect it to sound good, but believe me, there was nothing wrong with the projection of this bass. It was a famous guitar shaped italian and it was an absolute canon. Also Klaus Stoll has 2 very small italian instruments that are both outstanding in terms of quality and projection.

I think I share your taste in instruments because I myself don't like small instruments, or small string lengths, instruments like that often lack depth, but I would never claim that all small instruments lack depth and that that's the rule, period.

After I had hand surgery, I myself bought a copy of a Tarr, very big bodied with a tiny string length, and this particular bass sounds deeper and projects better than my previous 45 inch monster. I would not make it a rule, but I think things need to be taken on a case by case basis, with an open mind.

My 2 cents.

[bejoyous]

Fellow canuck...I can assure you my playing is plenty loud and my tone is quite nice from doing lots of long tones.


Reporter to Yehudi Menuhin: That sure is a great sounding violin!
Yehudi: (holds up and stares at violin) That's funny, I don't hear a thing!

Jaco: The sounds in your hands, man.

[Eli_Upright12]

Agree with everything said here, I just got my first set of the Mittels and I don't know if I'll ever go back. I think the biggest thing to emphasis is these strings are what you make them, they show you as a player. When you do everything right they sound outstanding, but if you make mistakes it shows. They are unforgiving, but when you get things right they are great.

[funkythumb]

Though I'm a pro electric player, I'm a newbie on arco and still learning the ins and outs.
I'm trying to figure out which way to go with my string selection.
I'm bowing with Spiro Mittels S38 on an Upton plywood which is really my pizz, jazz bass. The open strings can be scratchy.
I'm also bowing Evah Weichs on my hybrid Wilfer which lacks the bottom the UPton has but has more complex mids.
Evahs are much easier for me to bow with but they lack the pizz tone I enjoy on the Spiros.
Should I try the Superflexibles as a bowing/pizz compromise? I've heard they're not as scratchy but still have the brightness.
I also realize that the above mentioned basses are completely different basses. The strings however have made a huge difference and I'd value further opinion.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by funkythumb

Evahs are much easier for me to bow with but they lack the pizz tone I enjoy on the Spiros.
Should I try the Superflexibles as a bowing/pizz compromise? I've heard they're not as scratchy but still have the brightness.

I've not tried SFs, but I think that spiro weichs bow easier than the mittels and still have that spiro pizz tone.

[damonsmith]

Originally Posted by canuck_bass

Agreed. But yes, back to the Spirocores...I suppose it depends on the sound you're going for. I use a Spirocore Weich for my low C string (I tune in fifths).

Whenever I hear that some classical guy has gone all gaga over Spirocore it makes me a little nervous! These strings are very aggressive sounding, and lack a lot of warmth. If you want strings that have a lot of clarity then go for Permanents...These are nice sounding strings that are clear but still have some warmth behind them.

I would agree with this, I love them for what I do arco and pizz, but they might not be best for legit classical unless you have a REALLY dark sounding bass that needs to be brightened up.

[funkythumb]

Originally Posted by ehochberg

I've not tried SFs, but I think that spiro weichs bow easier than the mittels and still have that spiro pizz tone.

Ok, thanks, will keep in mind. Are they the purple wrap? I used to use those many, many years ago.
Any other opinions on the Superflex?

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just a note to all involved in the thread that users "canuck_bass" and "wundertone" were discovered to be sockpuppet accounts for longtime DB forum troll Calvin Marks. These accounts have been banned and their posts deleted. Please disregard the quoted statements from these accounts, or at the very least consider the source.

[JtheJazzMan]

Its an interesting comment about the spiros being aggressive sounding, and is worth addressing.

In my experience its more likely your bow and rosin that is aggressive, that is, if someone elses definition of aggressive sounding matches my definition.

I have all but given up soft rosin, nymans pops or oak. To me it sounds OK down on the low end as a strong orchestra tone, but even past the C on the G string it starts to create a choking sound everytime the bow sticks and slips. Thumb position with soft rosin always sounded awful to me. I kept telling myself it was just technique, but theres only so many ways you can draw a bow across the strings before you have to face the conclusion that its never going to sound good.

Its worth noting that both the basses I have are quite bright sounding, which I guess would make the problem worse.

I have had my bow rehaired with unbleached white, and since then have been using bernadel cello rosin, and just recently jade rosin, all in very small amounts on the bow. All of a sudden the solo tone of spirocores works 10x better. So much smoother its incredible. You have to work a little harder, and much more accurately down in the low end. The "downside" is that the tone is more airy down low, which I like but an orchestral player mightnt.

That airiness is what makes the strings sing up higher, with a renaud garcia-esque metallic zing. I can see why he uses spiros. Theres still a slight harsh edge there, which gives the bass a real cutting tone.

This metallic tone has good and bad effects: it allows the full metallic tone of the string to come out, on the flipside it allows extremely high harmonics to come out, increasingly the likelihood of shrieks. I know thats a technique issue, but its worth mentioning. On the good side of that, you can get a huge range of harmonic timbres out of the string this way.

Thats about most of the things on my mind at the moment.

They should put a label on the packet "with power comes responsibility". You can get a lot out of these strings, but you need to work for it.

[funkythumb]

Hey guys, I know this is a bit off topic but since you're here and reading this, I'd like to share today's experience to get opinions from you.
A few hours ago, I received my Finale carbon fiber bow in the mail. I spent a good hour or so A/Bing my $400 wood bow with the Finale $350. They really are night and day. So the Finale is supposed to sound as good as a $1200 wood bow?!?! ok...after trying both bows on both my uprights here's my conclusion.
I definitely prefer the sound of my wood bow over the Finale. It's not that the Finale sounds bad, it's just a different tone. The wood bow sounds woodier, fatter, and has an overall richer and more complex tone. The Finale has a more nasally, slightly more sterile tone. So why am I keeping the Finale?? My bowing seemed to have just jumped a couple levels with the carbon fiber. The scratching I was experiencing with my wood bow on the Spiros was eliminated with carbon fiber bow. I guess it's only fair to mention that I am using different rosin on each bow. Nyman on the wood and Kolstein on the carbon. Can that make the difference?
I wish I could combine elements of both bows. If I had to go out to do a bowing gig today I'd probably pick the carbon because my technique would sound better. The carbon helped bring out the high mids in my Upton laminate. There was less of a difference between the bows on the lami. There was a huge difference in tone when playing the Wilfer hybrid. The bows, in my opinion are extremely different. Anyone who says they can't hear the difference between carbon and wood needs to have their hearing examined. The carbon is better in bringing out the upper mids in a dark bass. When my bowing technique is worthy of it, I'll buy myself a really nice wooden bow. I'm just completely blown away at how much the bow affects the tone of the bass. I now believe in spending serious money in that department to bring out the best sound out of your DB.
Will the tone of the carbon fiber change at all over time?? :-)

[JtheJazzMan]

Check out my post above. If you havent had your bows rehaired yet, I bet you theyll both turn into a different bows yet again. Scratch is coming from the hair and rosin, not the stick.

[SLivinghouse]

+1 The difference is more likely the hair, which will affect scratchiness more than the bow itself. The main coveted quality of higher end bows is the “bounce” and balance which allows you to do more advance bowing techniques. Technique, bow hair, and rosin are all different in your description (I say technique also, since even though it is still you, the carbon fiber bow’s weight, frog shape, grip or length may be causing you to bow at more correct angles and improve your sound) You mentioned you are new to Arco. Take at least a few lessons form an orchestra bassist and you’ll see what we mean.