String comparison matrix

[TimoMetzemakers]

Hi gang,

I just found a web site that you guys might find interesting, courtesy of German bassist Hervé Jeanne. It's a comparison matrix (with recordings) of quite a lot of strings: Garbo, Anima, Chorda, Pizzicato, Eudoxa, Oliv, Obligato, Jazzer, Spiros, Presto Nylonwound (Eurosonics), Aquila Nylgut.

FYI, Lange Töne means long tones and Daumenlage means thumb position.

Timo

[JAS]

Thats very nice. You can hear some little nuances for sure between the dif. strings, but the bass has tons to do with it. Sounds like he has a nice bass and he is a great player.

When displayed like this, it is really amazing how similar these really all do sound. His bass has lots of sustain which makes all of these strings really sing.

For me, it has always been more about feel than sound. On my bass, I think most of these do sound relatively similar too. Its more about finding what is comfortable.

Also - I have found that a major difference in lots of strings is how they sound amplified. And of cource arco. Those would be 2 more interesting categories for him to have on there.

[Uncletoad]

Wow.

That is spectacular. What a huge labor.

Wonder if he let the strings break in any or if he did them cold with fresh sets.

I notice a lot of these little distinctions between strings on my bass too. The slowness of the Animas, the brightness and power of Spiros, the deadness of the gut bottom strings etc.

I too notice how his playing changes in subtle fashions with the string changes. The overall tone is similar across strings but their differences are betrayed by little subtle glisses or clicks or bounciness to the lines present with one set and absent another. That little stuff is why I struggle with strings so much trying to find the sweet spot where I am free to express myself rather than working around something or another.

I'm also struck by how much I like the sound of Spirocores for jazz pizz.

Imagine that.

Suppose we can get him to play some bluegrass and country too?

[Jake deVilliers]

Phil, when you copy & paste the first page of the string comparo into Babel Fish ( http://world.altavista.com/), he explains the methodology, which is not exactly scientifically rigorous.


I was thinking as I listened through that some of the strings would have sounded better with a little more string height.
And that the MP3 format removes a lot of the subtleties and nuances of tonal characteristics.

The thumb position clips really make the Pirastro Wound Guts sound beautiful though, don't they?

Is that the kinda full-bodied ringing resonance that you're talking about with your gut D & G Dr Phil?

[Johnny L]

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

I too notice how his playing changes in subtle fashions with the string changes.

Yeah he doesn't play exactly the same lines on the different strings...a few more or less drops or ornaments and such...line variations etc.

Certainly a nice way to showcase his own talent!

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by Jake deVilliers

The thumb position clips really make the Pirastro Wound Guts sound beautiful though, don't they?

Is that the kinda full-bodied ringing resonance that you're talking about with your gut D & G Dr Phil?

Yea that's it. The Chordas and Olives are the closest but with a bit more ping.

Good sounding bass he's got. Spiro's don't sound that good on my bass. I wish they did, I prolly wouldn't be monkeying around so much.

Does it say what he ended up with?

[Aaron Cohn]

This is a great page. And one that's seriously messing with my head. I'm reminded of why I loved the Eudoxas and was never tempted to switch for sound reasons--indeed I'm almost tempted to give them another shot. I'm also reminded of what I liked so much about the Aquila Nylguts. And it seems like my current tone with the Spirocore Weichs falls somewhere in between what he gets with the Jazzers, which I don't especially like, and the Spiro Mittels, which I do like. Too much to think about. Anyway, thanks to Mr. Jeanne for providing a great resource.

[TimoMetzemakers]

Hi,

Some of the questions are addressed on the site (in German). For instance, Hervé mentions that the Jazzers were almost brand-new, and therefore somewhat raw sounding.

But he'll probably weigh in soon!

Timo

[hervejeanne]

Hello collegues,
Timo sent me an e-mail 3 days ago with the link to this thread. I am really happy about all these great reactions to my string-matrix project. Yes, it was quite a lot of work, but it was fun.
Here is the whole story:
Besides playing gigs, I am writing for the german bass magazine "Bass Professor" and I had the opportunity to write reviews about the Velvet Strings and about Pirastro's gut string. While writing these reviews I thought: "It is so hard to describe the sound of these strings, it would be so much easyer to have some sound samples for the readers to listen to".
Besides that I was constantly trying different strings for myself (until 2002 I only played spiros, but then I heard Dennis Irwinn at the Vanguard...), and I wished I could find such a comparison thing on the internet. But since I didn't, it was clear that I should do it myself.
Let me try to answer your questions:
What did I end up with? In the last years I often switched from one set to another. But most of the time I played Velvet Garbo. Now I discovered the Aquila Nylguts which are very new. The maker of Aquila (Mimmo Peruffo) is a very nice person, and he is still developping and improving these strings; actually he was very interrested by my feedback and his newer sets are already better than the one I recorded. What I love about the Aquilas is that they have a "gutty" feel and dynamic response but they have a clearer (more centered) timbre than guts. And the G-String is very easy to play and it allows to "sing" on the bass, BUT it doesn't feel like a steel string.
Do I have string sponsors? Not really... If anyone has an idea about how I could make a little money with this page, please let me know. In that case I would be happy to expand the whole thing and add some more strings. (Maybe I should sell some ad-links )
String height? I played all the strings with the same (not adjustable) bridge, which is just high enough for gut strings and nearly too high for spiros etc...
Age of the strings? Most sets had been on my bass before. But for all of these recordings I mostly put them on and played them for 20-30 minutes before I recorded them.
Little differences between the clips: Yes, I didn't try to play exactly the same lines with each set, I just played them the way I felt in that moment. And I tried to show all the strengths and weaknesses of the strings by the lines I played.
More styles (arco, bluegrass, amplified)? If I have a sponsor I'll do it
(oops I have to write a second posting...)

[hervejeanne]

One thing that my matrix can't display is how the strings feel when playing in a band. For instance: Eudoxa sound really great but I had some difficulties when playing in a louder band, especially when soloing. The notes didn't seem to "project" as much as they do when playing Garbo, Nylgut or even Chorda.
I experienced something similar with Obligato: they sound great at home, when playing alone, but in the band I missed a strong "center" in the tone.
But maybe I just didn't have the right amplification for these strings or maybe my bass simply works better with other strings...
If you have some more questions and comments about my matrix please let me know!
Greetings from Germany
Hervé

[hervejeanne]

By the way: here is a direct link to the matrix:
http://www.hervejeanne.de/saitenmatrix.php

[Uncletoad]

Many thanks Hervé. That was a great service to DB players.

Being a string freak myself it has been nice to have those comparisons on someone else's bass with someone else's hands to be able to discern the subtle differences constant with each string regardless of player and instrument.

A big help

Welcome to TB and please keep posting.

[jsbarber]

Hervé:

Thank you for taking the time to create your matrix and posting it for others to benefit. If you can find the time it would be interesting to expand it and include some arco passages. (Your playing is very good, so I suspect you have put in some time with the bow...) I realize that you have focused primarilly on pizzicato usage, but many of us are also interested in arco.

Extrapolating what you said in your posting above: you might also add a comment field(s) for each string where you discuss playability, etc.

Anyway, sorry to be asking for more. I feel a bit like a spoilt kid whose always asking for more. What you have done already is an excellent contribution.

Jim

[noelito]

Timo
thanks for posting that site about different strings.
He sure has a nice db and all the strings sound good, but don't you think those pirastro obligatos were just a bit extra special sounding. I wonder what the comments were I don't read german
N.

[DrChill]

Something occured to me while listening to these clips that may speak to the feel and volume of the strings. If you listen closely to the Oliv and Obligato groove tracks you can clearly hear a finger snap immediatly following the attack on the E string, as where the Pirastro Pizz and Nylgut groove tracks have much less finger snap action.

To clarify what I'm talking about it's the sound of a regular finger snap, except instead of using your thumb to build up the tension as in a regular finger snap it's the E string that is resisting the fingers, and when the string is let go the fingers smack the same spot on the palm. This makes the sound of a regular finger snap, and it doesn't happen on the other strings because the E string (or others) will block the fingers from hitting your hand. There's probably a term for this and it's probably in Italian. I don't know what it is so I'm just going to call it Snappissima.

Anyway, the snappissma is caused by the amount of pressure built up before the release. And the best I can figure is that it is inversely related to the string volume. Given the same bass and the same recording EQ if the strings are quiet, then either the player has to really get after it and work the hell outta the strings or the recording gain has to be cranked up. Either way you get more snappissma. On the other hand if you've got strings that turn your bass into a canon less snappissa is going to come through on the track.

Given that the volume on all of the tracks sounds about the same to me, I'm going to stand by this theory unitl someone has a better argument against and possibly knows the term for this sound.

What I can't figure out is how the slinkiness of the string is going to effect the snappissma. I've been rolling this over in my head and it leads me in circles. Are higher tension strings necessarily louder, and wouldn't they require more pressure and thus more snap?

Also, being a novice I can't say for sure that I've played on any of these strings so I can't add what they feel like into the mix.

[pdbass]

I have to disagree.

First, everyone plays different. There are a thousand different ways to pizz a string, and if you watch someone like Charlie Haden (who plays gut), he gets a finger-snap everytime he plays the 'E'. Someone like Ron Carter never gets a snap because his technique is totally different.

Secondly, you can't really use the finger-snap to determine volume, tension, or whatever. If Rufus Reid or someone like him had a similar website, I'm positive that 1) there would be no snapping and 2) the strings would probably sound alot different.

I think that the string matrix is wonderful. It's great to hear all of these different strings on the same bass played by the same person available for all of us to hear. I can't ever think of it being done before. HOWEVER, no one can expect the strings to sound the same as they do online. No one can expect the strings to sound the same ON YOUR BASS. No one can expect that you'll play the strings the same way that he does.

What I'm saying, DrChill, is that the snapissma is relative. Relative to how you play, how your bass likes the strings, how high your action is, etc. Just because this guy is getting a snap on certain g-strings doesn't tell us a whole lot about what it will sound like on YOUR bass.

Famous story: bassists in Europe had been hearing Ray Brown on record throughout the 40's. He had this huge sound. To try and get that sound, bassists put their action high and yanked at the strings. When the Jazz at the Philharmonic tour came through and these European bassists finally got to see Ray, he wasn't playing with ridiculously high action or yanking the strings. It was totally relaxed, but that sound was still coming out. What you hear is sometimes different. He might be snapping because of the looseness of the string, he might be snapping because of the tightness of the string.

[DrChill]

Hey thanks pdbass,

That's a good point, I hadn't considered that a type of string could be louder on a given bass than another type of string; and that those same strings could have opposite volume on another bass. Or maybe even one player could get more volume out of one set on a given bass and a different player with a different style would get the same volume if a different set of strings were strung up.

That makes sense, one set of strings may resonate strongly at certain frequencies that some instruments will project while others instruments will dampen. Or a player's style will create harmonics that have more presence on certain types of strings or certain basses. I can dig that. And I am a big proponent of the idea that everybody has got their own bag, and that the set up that works for you and your gear may not work for anybody else. And that that's alright, you got to do what you got to do.

That's what your saying right? That every parameter is going to effect volume and tone and you can't count on getting the same sound if any one of the variables changes?

I dig what you mean about all those folks and styles and basses you mentioned. I think there are certain sound phenomena that can be applied generally. That's what makes hervejeanne's matrix so great is that all other things are equal so you can compare. This points one in the direction of what they can expect when choosing strings. (BTW, cheers to hervejeanne for this site)

The cool thing about hervejeanne's work is that the parameter space is locked down, e.g. it's the same dude playing pretty much the same licks on the same bass, presumably the same way. The only thing up for grabs is which strings he's using. What you get is a big difference in tone and sustain and probably a big difference in volume. But for whatever reason all the groove tracks seem to have the same volume...

That's what I'm after. Does anybody doubt that different strings yield different volume when everything else is the same as it is in this case?

What I'm saying is that maybe the big difference in snappissmo gives us a clue to the volume difference and probably the tension difference.

[pdbass]

Couldn't agree more.

I think the cool thing is that he tries out all of these different strings on one bass, with probably the same setup, and probably the same technique, playing basically the same thing. We can really learn alot about the differences between each string--almost like someone trying on different pairs of shoes and running and walking, etc. There's alot of information in those mp3's.

Have a great holiday, everybody!

[hervejeanne]

Dear friends,
I have a couple of new string soundclips on my matrix. I also tried to play an arco clip for the new strings, and I will try to record arco for the other strings (when I find the time). I am sorry for the bad arco playing, I have mostly had Garbos on my bass in the last couple of years and it wasn't fun to play arco on them so I just didn't practice arco (shame on me )... Still I think you get an impression of what a string may sound like when played arco.
About the volume thing: Maybe some GarageBand specialists can help me. I recorded every clip in the same way with GarageBand and then I clicked on "export for iTunes" or something like that. Maybe that function compresse the file, which would explain why every file has the same volume.
But anyway this "volume-thing" is also a thing that can't be shown on a soundclip. Some strings may sound very loud by themselves but still they "go under" when played in a band. So the most important information that you can get from my matrix is the timbre of a string and it's sustain, punch, etc...
About the "snapissima" thing: I can't even tell myself, why I get a snap on some strings and not on others. Maybe I get a snap when the string is more elastic, but I am not sure... But I definitely don't think that the snapissima will give a clue on how loud a string is.
Bye for today!
Hervé

[SteveFreides]

To my ear, of all the arco selections, the

Pirastro Evah Pirazzi

sounded best - no comparison, at least based on what I heard. I wish there was an arco clip of the Obligatto.

Since I'm looking for something that's mostly arco, I think I'll probably be going with one or the other of these soon.

-S-