Strings for more E-string fundamental?

KUNGfuSHERIFF · #1 07-07-2010, 11:06 AM

Hello all,

Noob here. My bass is a plywood German shop instrument, circa 1940, labeled Anton Schroetter but pretty much identical to some Juzeks and other shop basses of that era. The string length is 40 3/4 but the body dimensions are slightly smaller than 3/4 though larger than what I've seen described as a 5/8 bass.

The tone on the A, D and G is loud and full (strings are newish, medium Helicore Hybrids) but in certain positions notes on the E choke out. The open string and F are loud and full, but between F# and Ab there isn't much fundamental, meaning the note is mostly the "mwah" of string vibrating against ebony. At the A and above, into the thumb positions, the sound is nice and full. This effect is minimized, but still present, if I hold the note using only my fingertip.

I assume this phenomenon is part of life with a sub-3/4 instrument. Am I mistaken?

Over the weekend, in an attempt to mimic a higher tension string such as the famous-on-TB Spiro Stark E, I tuned the E up to F#. This seemed to minimize the loss of fundamental at the problem frequencies. If I slapped a Stark E or other heavy string on this bass, would it be likely to help solve my problem?

Many greenhorn thanks in advance.

AMJBASS · #2 07-07-2010, 11:30 AM

Sounds like you need your fingerboard dressed. While some smaller instruments can be a little weak on the low end, if your E and F are fairly strong and it drops off from there, that sounds like a fingerboard issue.

KUNGfuSHERIFF · #3 07-07-2010, 01:07 PM

I was afraid of that. The bass visited Merchant's shop right after I got it, and he commented that the fingerboard was on the thin side, but that it appeared to be dead straight. He did not go over the fingerboard closely, however.

Goodbye, money. At least you're going to someone I like.

**Chris Fitzgerald** · #4 07-07-2010, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KUNGfuSHERIFF

Over the weekend, in an attempt to mimic a higher tension string such as the famous-on-TB Spiro Stark E, I tuned the E up to F#. This seemed to minimize the loss of fundamental at the problem frequencies. If I slapped a Stark E or other heavy string on this bass, would it be likely to help solve my problem?

I would definitely try it before spending money elsewhere. By tuning your existing E up a step, what you are doing is increasing the tension by X%. The stark E is one of the highest tension strings made that I'm aware of. It's entirely possible that the extra tension will help you find what you're looking for. If not, you've still got an interesting string to play with, and if you ever need to invade any small countries, your bases are covered there, too.

longfinger · #5 07-07-2010, 03:12 PM

If you down-tune your A to Ab, does the bass resonate well when you play this open Ab?
If you down-tune your E to a D and play a concert F#, does the bass resonate well?

Are the issues with specific pitches or specific locations on the fingerboard? Altered tunings could help you find out.

KUNGfuSHERIFF · #6 07-07-2010, 03:20 PM

The issue seems to be location-specific more than pitch-specific. I will check this evening when I get home.

Not sure if this is what is being asked, but the bass seems to be happiest tuned to the proper pitch. The open strings seem to have a little bit more life to them, as compared to a certain dullness when tuned slightly flat or sharp. Am I nuts or is this is a real thing others have noticed?

longfinger · #7 07-07-2010, 03:34 PM

I would think that an acoustic instrument could take some playing time to get adjusted to changes in the open string tunings.

Do check if the the notes lacking fundamental are pitch specific or location specific.

Another factor to toss in, is this E string itself. It could have something damaged on the inside of it that does not allow it to vibrate properly at certain points of its length.

KUNGfuSHERIFF · #8 07-07-2010, 04:17 PM

When I got it, the bass was strung with an ancient set of what looked like Spiro Mittles (red silk on both ends). The same issue occurred with those strings, so methinks it's the bass.

Thanks for all of your suggestions and advice. Will report back with specifics after Ms. Vi-Vi crashes for the night.

KUNGfuSHERIFF · #9 07-07-2010, 08:09 PM

Ok. I downtuned the A string a full step, and while the string sounded like wet noodle it did not lose fundamental and gain mwah or buzz as the E string does. Actually, the E is funky up to the B.
On the slab, we call this string behavior "fretting out," because the orbit of the string is interrupted when it strikes the fret(s). Is there an equivalent term that applies to the double bass?
I looked closely at the fingerboard under the E and ran my finger along it after pulling the string aside, and did not feel any obvious peaks or valleys. Any other suggestions before I go for heavier strings?

zeytoun · #10 07-07-2010, 11:49 PM

The equivalent term on double bass: Not enough 'scoop' or 'relief' under the E string (generally need slightly more on the bass side). It's all about the angle of the string from where your finger stops it. Deeper relief, higher action, tighter strings all are factors in improving the angle and minimizing the oscillation of the string.

So:
As mentioned, (1) fingerboard dressing. Different strings require more relief (guts and low tension strings need more, generally), so if the higher tension test improved things then (2) a higher tension string might very well also improve it. (3) Another option is raising the string height on the E slightly - depending of course on it's hight in relation to the A (for bowing ease).

KUNGfuSHERIFF · #11 07-08-2010, 08:03 AM

That makes sense. Now that I'm paying close attention to these things, the G sounds a little dead in the lowest positions. The bass was built right-handed but was converted for left-handed play. It stands to reason that the fingerboard was fine-tuned to reflect that kind of use.

When Merchant set up the bass for me he put what he called an "orchestra curve" on the bridge ("Because, well, why not?") and cautioned me against raising or lowering one side more than the other because it would throw everything out of line.

davpal · #12 07-08-2010, 08:21 AM

The cheapest and easiest thing to would be to increase the string height. I assume it has an adjustable bridge as Mr. Merchant cautioned you about not "throwing it out of line". It does sound like there's not enough scoop on the neck particularly under the E string and the greater string height will allow you to get by until a proper dressing is done.

KUNGfuSHERIFF · #13 07-08-2010, 08:49 AM

Adjustable bridge, yes, increasing the string height, no. I'm trying different things to see how the bass responds, and it seems to misbehave less with the strings nearly laying on the fingerboard. I had them WAY up there for a while, which did not serve to improve either the buzz or the overall tone.

longfinger · #14 07-10-2010, 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KUNGfuSHERIFF

.... The bass was built right-handed but was converted for left-handed play. It stands to reason that the fingerboard was fine-tuned to reflect that kind of use.

Are you a lefty playing a right handed bass? What exactly was converted? Or did you bring it back to righty play from the previous lefty player?

KUNGfuSHERIFF · #15 07-10-2010, 07:28 PM

When I bought the bass this spring it was strung lefty. I say strung lefty because it had been built for a right but was converted. I switched the strings back to righty and turned the bridge 180 degrees but that left the string heights way out of whack. Merchant cut the top off the bridge, notched it, and shaved and reset the soundpost.

The slots in the nut are very wide so they were not touched, nor were the nut slots cut deeper or filled. That along with a fingerboard planing are next, I'm thinking.