switching over to gut: setup questions

ablumley · #1 07-30-2007, 10:30 PM

After months of talking and thinking about switching to gut strings, the sudden fraying of the windings on a few of my current strings (Obligatos) has inspired me to order a set from Lemur. I've purchased varnished G and D, and silver wrapped A and E strings. They're the Efranos--they may not be Gamuts or whatever but if they're good enough for Wilbert de Joode, than I think they'll do just fine for me.

So budget string choice aside, I would like to know setup wise what I should be asking/looking for the luthier to do. Obviously the nut and bridge slots will have to be widened. My action is fairly high (about 7 mm on the G and 9mm on the E side) but will probably have to go up (I've got adjusters with plenty of threading left). But what about sound post adjustment? Neck scooping etc.? Is there something else that I need to be on the look out for?

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, cautionary anecdotes would be appreciated.

bluegrasscat · #2 07-31-2007, 01:52 AM

[quote=ablumley;4491419 Is there something else that I need to be on the look out for?

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions, cautionary anecdotes would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]

last year i had purchased those same strings, Efrano w gut g and d.. wound E A. and they sounded and played great. BUT.. you need to keep on them.. (maintaining them.) there is alot of info on this, somewhere here on talkbass.. back to what i was going to say.. well i was watching T.V one afternoon, and i heard my bass play by itself, with a nasty twang sound. it was my D string.. broke mid way down fingerboard. and then a 2weeks later my wound E did the same thing ... we had a bad spell of hot and humid and then really dry air. and i live close to beach.. i wasnt paying attention to them but just playing them... after they broke i realized i wasnt taking care of them!! ive heard some people have had problems, but most do not.. like anything, you dont know what will last or what will fail... just my 2 cents.. GL you will dig those strings for sure!!

Bobby King · #3 07-31-2007, 07:38 AM

You probably can't tell if it needs any sound post adjustment or neck scooping until you put them on. The slots are important, and as you've noted the action will likely need to come up a little.

One thing I find with gut is that you may want the G and possibly the E a little higher proportionately. Some gut players, especially slappers and others that aren't concerned about arco will have a somewhat flatter bridge contour. Once again, I'd wait until you have the strings on and see how they behave on your particular bass.

ablumley · #4 07-31-2007, 11:33 PM

Thanks for the responses.

Bluegrasscat, I'm assuming that you are referring to oiling, applying graphite lubrication in the nut and bridge slots, and taking tension off the strings when the bass is in an unstable environment. Anything else I should be thinking about?

Bobby King, it's unlikely that I'll be flattening out the contour of the bridge as I play a fair bit of arco. I actually prefer the overtones of bowed gut. I guess I'm a bit weird, but I like the rough, nasal growl and the bit of whistling that sometimes occurs. And I'm not much of a slapper as of yet, anyway.

JeffKissell · #5 08-01-2007, 01:04 AM

If you play every day humidity shouldn't be a problem. Just be mindful of the weather. Here in central California I'm spoiled because I'm a 1/2 mile from the ocean and the humidity never changes abruptly. San Diego is much less stable believe it or not. Toronto's humidity will probably change slower.

A good luthier should have no problems widening the bridge and nut slots. I wouldn't worry too much about the sound post unless you were already thinking it needed an adjustment. Same with the finger board.

If you like the string height at 7-9, you should be able to keep it there. BUT, just be aware, higher string height with gut strings is seductive and compelling. You will love being able to really dig in and finally be rewarded for your efforts.
-J

Uncletoad · #6 08-01-2007, 05:25 AM

My bass was set up for Spirocore Mittels for my primarily pizz playing.

Over time I've put just about every string known to man on it. The nut slots and bridge slots are opened up to accomodate the larger string diameters. The current strings are smaller than the largest of strings I've used on there but I found no reason to reduce them back. No fingerboard planing or soundpost adjustment has been done.

The string height has gone from 4-6mm at the fingerboard's end to 10-12mm now with Spirocore Mittel E/A and plain gut D/G. Took me awhile to get the strings up that high. They've been coming up over the last year.

I gotta say getting the strings up high is where all the good stuff is.

ctxbass · #7 08-01-2007, 01:55 PM

A quote from Don Mopsick, bassist for the Jim Cullum Jazz Band,in this month's Jazz Me News (Jim Cullum Jazz Band newsletter)

Quote:

Both of my basses are set up with high-quality gut strings (Pirastro Chorda) and high action (over 30mm from the edge of the fingerboard) to get the most acoustic output out of them.

I was really impressed a few years ago when his strings were at 20mm. I guess you can just keep going higher. These guys aren't playing any bop though.

ablumley · #8 08-01-2007, 04:48 PM

The 7mm-9mm string height that I've got going with the Obligatos now is actually the lowest that it has been in a few months. I had each side probably 2-3 mm higher for a while in preparation for making the switch but the height combined with the tension of the strings was starting to make me worry that I might be hurting myself without knowing it. That said, there is a local swing player named Terry Wilkins who plays chordas with action that is probably in the 20mm range. It felt a little too intense for my taste when I tried his bass so I'll probably be experimenting for a while. But anyway, I'm heading down to the Fedex depot tonight to pick up the strings and I have an appointment with the Luthier next week. When I told him that I was putting guts on my bass his response was: "uh oh"

Uncletoad · #9 08-01-2007, 08:30 PM

Nnick Lloyd who does my bass setup for me mentioned that with the lowered tension of the gut strings the scoop of the fingerboard dress may need to be recut. With my mixed setup it doesn't create much of a problem although a bit more scoop under the the G wouldn't hurt.

I don't suggest making any permanent changes until you've made a permanent change in strings, ie. you ain't goin back.

JeffKissell · #10 08-01-2007, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ablumley

... When I told him that I was putting guts on my bass his response was: "uh oh"

ablumley · #11 08-05-2007, 12:44 AM

Another batch of questions for the gut players:

Lemur's string installation guide states that the string should not be in contact with any sharp angles. What about the slight raised bit where the string leaves the tailpiece? Should I be rounding it off with sandpaper on the side where the string crosses?

Also, any oil recommendations? How often do varnished strings need to be oiled (if at all)? And how should I go about oiling the wire wound A and E strings?

thanks for all the help,

Aaron

Uncletoad · #12 08-05-2007, 07:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ablumley

Also, any oil recommendations? How often do varnished strings need to be oiled (if at all)? And how should I go about oiling the wire wound A and E strings?

thanks for all the help,

Aaron

No need for varnished or wound.

ablumley · #13 08-07-2007, 10:20 PM

OK, no oiling needed. Now should I be taking tension off the strings whenever I'm not playing it or should I only do this when I am taking it into different environmental conditions or leaving the bass at home unattended for a few days (when going up north for a canoe trip)?

Uncletoad · #14 08-07-2007, 11:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ablumley

OK, no oiling needed. Now should I be taking tension off the strings whenever I'm not playing it or should I only do this when I am taking it into different environmental conditions or leaving the bass at home unattended for a few days (when going up north for a canoe trip)?

Good question. Wound guts get that treatment from some folks. I've never done it for the plains. Don't go but a whole step at the most. Don't wanna loose the soundpost.

M Ramsey · #15 08-08-2007, 05:38 AM

Listen to the Toad. Now, in the winters of Toronto, you may have to pay more attention to your gut strings than most of the rest of us. This would mostly come into play when transporting your bass from the house to the car and from the car to the gig, expecially in extreme temperature changes.

Play them regularly and you'll begin to understand how they can change and how these changes apply to you and your environments.

They are natural strings and are affected by the same temps/changes that affect our own skin.

Bobby King · #16 08-08-2007, 09:36 AM

I've found that after the initial break-in, the wound guts are more susceptible to temperature change than the plain -- going from warm to cold makes them go sharp and vice versa. Here in Nashville, (it's been hovering near 100 degrees this week!), it's usually going from being in the car to an air-conditioned place and they go sharp. It usually takes a couple of tunings until they settle. When I get to a gig, I unpack my bass and tune it right away. Then I play it for a few minutes and retune before starting a set. That will usually get it in the ballbark, but I keep a tuner in line and check from time to time.

Like Mike Ramsey said, you begin to understand how they behave after a while. For instance, I do a show in an air conditoned theatre where in one section I do some slapping. You'd think that might make the strings go flat but the opposite happens. I think the slapping stretches the strings a little, but then that makes them susceptible to the air conditioning again and they go a little sharp as they contract.
I don't usually detune them ovenight or when I go away.
Ah, gut...

I occasionally put a little oil on the plain guts to help prevent hairs from sprouting, but never on the wound ones. I don't know why you'd do that, it would likely make them sound deader. In fact, I'll occasionally clean the wound ones with a little alcohol to prevent tarnish.

ablumley · #17 08-08-2007, 11:14 PM

Well, I'm now playing with gut strings. After having them on and up to pitch for a few hours I'm really digging the sound and feel. I've raised the action up to 9mm on the G side and 14mm on the E. Even at this height it feels comfortable to play anywhere on the instrument. Though they're not even broken in, the sound is an improvement over the old synthetics. Feels better on my hands too. I'll keep an eye on the strings as the weather changes. Usually it stays pretty humid here for most of the summer because Toronto is on lake Ontario. This Summer the lake hasn't done much though to stop the heat from rising into the 100+ degree fahrenheit levels! The place where I am playing my first gig on guts (Friday) is practically a sauna. I'm predicting sagging in the forcast....