Tactile vs Sonic

[TroyK]

Could have posted this in the setup or jazz technique forums, but let me throw it out here, since I’m most amongst my people in the strings forum, unfortunately.

We’ve talked a lot about different strings and their qualities for a long time here. I posted the “I found the perfect strings” after my awesome setup, the point being, what I was trying to compensate for with every string on the planet was actually better addressed with setup. Since then my bass has been open and singing and loud and clear and has a very pleasing tone all the way across and up. I’ve left well enough alone with both the set up and strings.

Now, I’m thinking again…I don’t want to go back down that rat hole, so I’m questioning why I’m thinking and what it is, is that I’m not as satisfied with my choice of strings from a tactile standpoint. They sound great, perform well, but the tension is a little low, the strings a little thin and the action a tad high. I have to really concentrate on not overplaying them. I’ve been trying to adjust myself rather than trying to adjust the instrument, which I still think is probably the best solution.

But, the question I have is sound/every bass is different et al aside, how much do you guys think about your tactile setup vs your sonic setup?

Bass and sound aside, what’s the experienced consensus on the relationship between tension and effort? It certainly seems intuitively that more tension requires more effort, but I seem to work harder with lower tension strings on the bandstand. For example, when I’ve set in with groups on someone’s bass strung with some kind of Velvet, it’s always turned me to hamburger in 2-3 songs. I like the sound of various Velvet strings I’ve heard or tried, but have long felt at I would have to redefine myself as a player to use them. I just can’t charge at them like I like to do.

We talked in the Evah Parazzi thread about stiffness and tension being separate qualities that could work against each other and you if not all lined up properly.

What say ye? Do you work harder or stiffer or more flexible strings? More or less tension? Lighter or heavier gauge? Higher or lower strings from the board?

I’ll look forward to your thoughts and observations.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I like very tense strings that can take the weight of my entire arm hanging from them, which requires that they be set high enough to dig in and "get under" them: Spiro mittels, starks, Dominants, etc. I find playing with thin or loose-feeling strings to be a lot more work to keep up with, and setups with low string height exhaust and frustrate me quickly because they don't speak quickly or loudly enough for my own personal taste. Naturally, setup is a very personal thing for each player.

[AMJBASS]

I get tired a lot quicker on strings with lower tension. I think I have a tendancy to dig in too much, and end up wasting a lot of energy. You can only get so much sound. The higher tension responds quicker, and you don't really need to work as hard.

[Marcus Johnson]

Same here... too little tension=too much work for me and not enough feedback.

[AndreasH]

I've never felt comfortable with steels or other high-tension strings. Almost a year ago, I strung my bass with Velvet Garbos and then I started to realize what I was looking for. Right now I have Garbo EAD and Gamut Lyon G. The Gamut has very low tensin, even lower than Velvets. It felt kind of wierd at first but now I'm getting used to it. Nowadays, I play unamped all of the time so high-tension strings is not really an option.

[Mark Perna]

I'm pretty much just going to reiterate what others have said. Low tension and/or low action = more work. I use Mittels with a medium action. I actually prefer the sound with an even higher action but when I put them up high, I end up tripping over myself a little too much (particularly when soloing). If you bobble the time on a fast tune, you look like a total goober so I put them at the compromise point between playability and sound which, for me, is still pretty high.

Up until recently, I was using a Dominant G (and going back a year, a Dom D) and I LOVE the sound of the Dom G. I love the stiffness of the string and it's fast attack and the boom at the front of the note. My latest Dom G went bad after about 2 weeks and I put a broken in Mittel G on. I'm torn now. The Dom G is my personal favorite string but the Mittel sounds really good too. The Dom is notoriously unreliable while the Spiro is completely and totally reliable and maybe even indestructible. In event of a nuclear war, the only thing left will be cockroaches, those old Bell telephones and Spiro Mittels. The Dom is stiff but doesn't take much energy to get a glorious sound out of it while the Mittel requires all of my right hand finesse to get a nice thunk with the attack.

That's MY dilemma.

mark

[TroyK]

Interesting. Kind of what I was thinking/feeling too. Keep it coming.

[Jeremy Allen]

I think there are different kinds of "low tension"--there's the low tension of wimpy strings like, say, Corellis or Obligatos or Spirocore weichs set up too low, which as someone said regarding Brian Bromberg's bass set-up "require more care than effort to play," and then there's the low tension of gut strings or Velvets put at the "correct" height. I'm a Spirocore mittel/"medium" (whatever that means) height guy at heart, and nothing has ever felt as comfortable and effortless-yet-full-and-fulfilling to me as playing on guts or Velvet Animas set up at the right height (which I've done for about two years at a time in the case of Animas, and on and off over the past several years in the case of guts). I've also noticed that basses react very differently to the same strings, and I've gone through about five "main axes" in the past five years for various reasons: on two of the basses, Dominants were perfect and Spirocores were non-existent, while on two of them Spirocores were the epitome of what a bass string should be and Dominants were way too stiff; low tension strings like guts or Velvets were just what the doctor ordered on the basses that made sense with Spirocores, but failed to get things moving on the basses that like Dominants and Evah Pirazzis (and other higher-tension strings).

I have to say that, to discuss the other part of the question, the tactile aspect of strings is huge for me. I've futzed around with so many strings on so many basses, and recorded most of the experiments, and I have to say that the sonic differences between strings I love and strings I hate are actually quite small from out in the room. But the difference in the way the strings feel has a profound effect on my attitude and my inspiration; when I come to the end of a night with Spirocores cranked up there, I feel like "hamburger" as Troy mentioned and I want to walk away from the bass, but when I come to the end of the same night with gut strings on my bass I feel fresh and still very vibrant musically. If that makes sense.

Of course, my bass has a full set of Spiro mittels on it right now, and I don't care; it's winter, my Olivs literally fell apart last month, and I'm happy to play with a reliable tool. But I notice the different feeling, that's for certain.

[TroyK]

Originally Posted by Jeremy Allen

...my Olivs literally fell apart last month, and I'm happy to play with a reliable tool. But I notice the different feeling, that's for certain.

Agh, why can't OLIV's be durable?

[jrlynch]

dunno ... strikes me that it's all so interactive, i'm not sure how you can quantify it into little boxes like that. i'm thinking that first it's what the ideal sound is in your head, then it's finding that combination of string and technique that starts getting you there (not necessarily in that order), then it's off to setup land to totally tweak things out.

all this is assuming a decent quality instrument to start with.

i'd be curious about what the luthier folks have to say about all this.

jeff.

[Uncletoad]

Bass setup, neck angle, overstand, top tension/stiffness Tp angle, string length, camber in the board and other things I can't think of just now all interact to create the tactile experience that goes with playing the bass. String tension and stiffness are part of that.

For instance I did some pizz on a Shen Willow set up with Belcanto the other day and they didn't feel a whole lot different than my old bass with Mittels with similar string height. Belcanto on that bass feel like mush.

I like string tension. I like a bass that snaps back at you quickly prepared for another whack while sounding loud. I don't mind powering a top but I hate putting a lot of power and energy in to a low tension or not very stiff string when it gets sucked up and doesn't pop. Only part of that is string makeup and tension.

Sometimes the formula for adjustment there is string change. Often the formula is setup or structure changing. For instance the Alsatian Queen has some repair work to the top that choke it a bit. As such it's pretty unforgiving for playing or strings. At some point the top is coming off and the junk will get remove as well as some of the bassbar. At that point the bass will be even quicker and louder and more responsive. Nice.

Sometime a string change is in order. If Spiro weich are wimpy try Mittel. If Mittel seem wimpy try Stark. My favorite sounding strings on the planet are Spiro Starks, I just can't play them on any of my basses without killing myself or choking the bass. One tick back for me is the spiro Mitt with a Stark E.

[PB+J]

After reading this thread I just took a set of spiro weichs off and put some mittels on. Yep. Faster response, bigger sound, feels like tugging on steel wires. Reminds me of why I switched to animas then back to weichs after the animas were too hard to bow.

Last night I had a gig in a synagogue, playing a lot of root five stuff that didn't swing all that much, and the higher tension would have been great for that. The weichs took a lot of digging in and got harder to work

The Mittels are good--it's a good sound, big and in your face, focused and tight. I liked the weichs because they had a little more bounce to them on my bass. But the sound is really pretty similar--I didn't even bother to ask my wife if she heard a difference--and as I think about it, when I'm happiest playing the bass is when it feels good--when it's relaxed and bouncy and grooving. But I guess this is the point--different music has different needs and different strings get you to that place better for some music than for others.


Argh! I've got a set of velvet blues on order. I'll see how I like those. Why did I ever re-open this can of worms?

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by PB+J

Why did I ever re-open this can of worms?

Yea, blame it on Troy the guy that refuses to change strings ever again .

I was annoyed at my bass again the last couple days because the Mitt G isn't giving me everything I want. I messed with a Stark Flex but it's to slow (I've done all this before I don't know why I feel compelled to put myself through this stuff on gigs all the time). I put the Oliv G back on for a set on thursday, and on my old bass it won't keep up with the spiro mitts in volume or tone.

As I stared back at my computer screen after the gig last night and read myself declaring my favorite strings are starks spiros I thought "why not, it's not been done since before Nnick did a bunch of setup work"....Yea ok so I just did the D/G, left the mit A and the Stark E. Can't take that Stark A, to big and to tight. I lowered the strings height to 6-10 to have a chance at dealing.

So...we'll see. Tonights gig will tell me what I need to know.

Troy's fault.

He's got me changing strings even when he refuses.

I think being sick is fun.

[TroyK]

Phil, you can't possibly be blaming me for your string compulsion. Addicts always lash out and their loved ones...

Jake did an awesome set up for me. Wolf tones gone. Weichs not sounding twangy in the least, loud, beautiful. He did exactly what I asked him too and I don't know actually how my bass (yeah, she's a good quality instrument) does with more tension. My experimenting always lead me to believe that she choked up under tension and Jake shared the same thoughts. She certainly seems happy now.

But, I do miss that snap back and I think I'm over playing the setup. My fault. Part of it is tension, but part of it is the thinness of the higher strings. I just like some more meat there.

I'm going to keep trying to adjust myself, but I appreciate the validation that for others, more tension sometimes = less work.

Troy

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by TroyK

Phil, you can't possibly be blaming me for your string compulsion. Addicts always lash out and their loved ones...

Yes, yes I am. Isn't it nice to know someone cares.

[TroyK]

So, I'm down in the woodshed (my secret underground lair) and everything sounds and feels great, until I start improvising on "If I Should Lose You" and start to dig what I'm playing, then I recognize the overplay and the hang up. Insterestingly, it's my left hand, not my right. My right is digging, but it's pretty relaxed and I think that it's adjusting to the feedback from the strings. But the weich d, specifically, when I do certain little articulations, I'm getting hung up on the string, which went with me a little more than expected.

So, it's good to understand it better. Maybe knowing that will help me play around it, then again, if that's what I'm hearing and feeling and I can't figure out how to do it, I may want to put something a little stiffer or heavier on there. I don't think the strings are too high. i think that was another confused diagnosis.

So, back to the practice room with this thought from The Matrix:

"Spoon boy: Do not try and bend the spoon. That's impossible. Instead... only try to realize the truth.

TroyK: What truth?

Spoon boy: There is no spoon.

TroyK: There is no spoon?

Spoon boy: Then you'll see, that it is not the spoon that bends, it is only yourself."

[Mark Perna]

I'm having sort of the same problem. The Mittel G is like overcooked spaghetti compared to the Dom G and I have to control the tendency to overplay it.

mark

[jrlynch]

funny, was chatting with a fellow bassist tonight who was saying that his issue with the thom mittels is that every bass that has them sounds like mittels on a bass rather than a bass with mittels ... makes perfect sense to me ... just too distinctively metallic for my tastes.

of course my tastes may change next week.

jeff.

Originally Posted by Uncletoad

Bass setup, neck angle, overstand, top tension/stiffness Tp angle, string length, camber in the board and other things I can't think of just now all interact to create the tactile experience that goes with playing the bass. String tension and stiffness are part of that.

For instance I did some pizz on a Shen Willow set up with Belcanto the other day and they didn't feel a whole lot different than my old bass with Mittels with similar string height. Belcanto on that bass feel like mush.

I like string tension. I like a bass that snaps back at you quickly prepared for another whack while sounding loud. I don't mind powering a top but I hate putting a lot of power and energy in to a low tension or not very stiff string when it gets sucked up and doesn't pop. Only part of that is string makeup and tension.

Sometimes the formula for adjustment there is string change. Often the formula is setup or structure changing. For instance the Alsatian Queen has some repair work to the top that choke it a bit. As such it's pretty unforgiving for playing or strings. At some point the top is coming off and the junk will get remove as well as some of the bassbar. At that point the bass will be even quicker and louder and more responsive. Nice.

Sometime a string change is in order. If Spiro weich are wimpy try Mittel. If Mittel seem wimpy try Stark. My favorite sounding strings on the planet are Spiro Starks, I just can't play them on any of my basses without killing myself or choking the bass. One tick back for me is the spiro Mitt with a Stark E.

[drurb]

Wow-- so much to agree with! Here's my take (that may repeat some/much of what's been said):

1) Interactions among basses/players/strings are HUGE! UT is spot-on about setup and strings

2) Sound and feel are intimately and inextricably linked. After all, as we all keep saying, the sound is in your hands. Push back on those hands in a different way and voila!-- different sound.

3) Mittels are too metallic for me as well.

4) Low-tension combined with low string height is hell! Ditto on everything Chris said.

5) I've experienced more of that nice "snap-back" that UT mentioned since I replaced my Doms with Evahs. I can't tell if that punchy front-end of each note results from their "sound" or the tactile change. I'm pretty sure it's both.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by jrlynch

every bass that has them sounds like mittels on a bass rather than a bass with mittels

I like this point of view and have felt that way from time to time. They sound significantly less "metalic" and drive the bass much better on my ancient bass then they do on my modern ply so YMMV.

The Starks on the D/G experiment went better than expected but oddly my take on them was similar to the above notion. To much string and not enough bass.

Since they are newer though I noticed that they have significantly more of the objectionable stuff than the more worn out E/A. That would likely improve by letting them die on the bass.

I also noticed that the feedback from the mic was significantly higher at a similar volume setting than it was with mittels to the point where it almost became useless. That added to my to much string not enough bass thing as well.

Tinkering with my old bass has made me discover that I need to intervene more structurally to get where I'm pointing and that strings are not the solution in this case.