THIN or THICK STRINGS (Corellis VS The Others)

[vitoliuzzi]

Dear Forum
probably you have also discuss about this technical aspect about strings. But I would like to listen to your opinions, if it' possible.
In my life I'have always used a string that could give me the real sound of a double bass, not only in Solo concerts but also in Orchestra (or using Pizzicatos). Well, some years ago I discovered the Corellis 360 Medium in Tungsten for Solo recitals. Well, it was like to live in another word ... but not in a posite sense! I mean, these are very and very thin strings, which allow you to play difficult passages with more simplicity (they seem like cello strings), you can play with more virtuosity (fast passeges), you don't stress your hand and so on. With Solo tuning, your bass will seem a cello ... but not more a DOUBLEBASS.

In my opinion, you have to be lucky to find also the instrument that allow you setting these strings and having a good sound, enough powerful and that travels in the air, into a concert hall. At the opposite, you might have a metallic string, very easy to play, but with a poor sound and a "noisy" sound, expecially when you change string with the bow.

Low frequencies range is not so full of Harmonics, and Corellis really change your way of playing (it's possible to play "alla Rabbath or like Karr"), with a good amplifier probably you can use them also for Jazz. But in a live classical recital, if you don't have a very powerful instrument, Corellis don't help you. Often, pianist (or Orchestra) always hangs over you. But in a studio recording, with all the adjustments, and two AKG microphones at ten centimeters from the bridge, the thing is different.

But I think it's no more the sound of a DoubleBass.

Ok, you can play with more easiness, finding also new solutions with bowings or artificial harmonics, but I think there isn't the same full bodied sound in comparison with using traditional strings.

I'm not against Corellis! Absolutely no! I've used them for a period ... there was something wrong !!!
But have you noted this difference in comparison with other strings (that I call "traditional strings" ... Obligato, Flexocore, Dominant, Spirocore, Velvet and so on).

Thaks in advance for your comments.

Vito Liuzzi (South Italy)

[Marcus Johnson]

Vito, I think I know what you're saying. I'm currently playing Spirocore weichs, and I can play pretty much anything that pops into my head (I'm mostly a jazz pizzicato player). And it's fine, for the most part. But I sometimes play other strings... I had Animas on this bass for awhile, and although my facility was not as great as it is on the Spiros, the sound remained BIG all over the whole range of the bass. It never got into that "cello-ness" that I sometimes get with the Spiros. It's most apparent when I'm playing without an amp. The fullness of the acoustic sound is just not there. People used to be shocked to hear that I was playing the bass unamplified when I had the Animas on there.

I do understand how you could feel that it's not the real sound of the bass at some point. It's always a tradeoff when you're swapping strings.

[vitoliuzzi]

Originally Posted by Marcus Johnson

I do understand how you could feel that it's not the real sound of the bass at some point. It's always a tradeoff when you're swapping strings.

Dear Marcus,
I'm happy for your answer, first of all!!

But I want to quote again this piece of your reply:

"It's always a TRADEOFF when you're swapping strings". It's absolutely true, in my opinion.

You probably know that I'm a pure classical player, but from your words I have understood that the question is the same also for jazz players when they have to decide what sort of strings have to be used to obtain not only your own sound but also in relation to the virtuosity you would like to obtain.
You must think that nowadays on classical CD recordings, a lot of soloists, in the "SAME" Cd, change their strings according to the piece they are going to play. Or they use different doublebasses with different strings (thinner on one of it, thicker ... and of a different brand on another).
I don't know if this aspect is also common among jazz players ... but in the classical world it happens in the most of cases.

My best regards

Vito Liuzzi

[Francois Blais]

Hi Vito.
Great post!

I'm not playing arco, so take my comments with a grain of salt.

Did you try Pirastro Permanents?
They're designed mostly for arco work, with a bright top and lots of sensitivity, and have good pizz.
They're also available in solo gauge.
Their tone is much fuller than Corellis, with more volume and more fundamental.

Best regards,
François

[kwd]

Vito

Have you tried Jargar Fortes? I am currently using Corelli 370 Extra Forte gauge. I find that they provide a good balance for my classical studies and jazz. The Jargar Forte has a bit more tension and they are slightly thicker. But, they provide a more powerful, natural sound without having to resort to a very large diameter, high tension string.

You might want to consider the medium gauge as there would be a considerable tension and diameter change from the 360M.

[Amin]

I think that the problem is even wider..

I'm trying right now Corelli370tx..
They allow you to play with more easiness, that's true, especially for the left hand.

But the problem is the right hand..
I need to play in a very different way.. I was accustomed to Pirastro strings lately (Orig.Flat, Flexocores, etc..)and I must admit that it's actually another world..

Lots of things change: how you think of the sound, the way you can get that sound, where to bow...(with Corelli you find their best playing near the bridge according to me..)

Finally , I think it depends a lot on each one's style.

I'm getting scared about the fact that I could "forget" how to play with a traditional string if I keep playing with these Corellis..even if I'm having a lot of fun with them..

I fear that mounting another string I could notice a loss of sound and power 'cause I'm getting used to these light and easy strings that have to be played differently.....

I think I'll keep trying different strings..
I'll consider the Permanent-options.....!
(Are they as easy as Corelli370tx on the left hand? Thanks..)

[Francois Blais]

Originally Posted by Amin

I'll consider the Permanent-options.....!
(Are they as easy as Corelli370tx on the left hand? Thanks..)

They are stiffer as they have more tension.
Remember that when going low tension, you have to sacrifice some things!
It depends what kind of compromise you're willing to accept.

[vitoliuzzi]

Dear friends.
Thanks a lot to everyone for your very interesting comments.
I must tell that it's absolutely true that when you switch from a "normal" gauge to Corellis a lot of things change.
I' ve tried 36O Solo set (the medium one and TX Forte). I think, and I don't repeat, the Amin's observations. I have found the same problems. Very easy to play with left hand and, as KWD observes, Corellis Forte Tension provide you a more powerful sound. But my contemporary liuther doublebass seem not to accept all types of Corellis. With my french bow I could obtain a lot of different bowings in the Rabbath's style, but I could not be able to hear the "real" sound of a doublebass. And, effectively, you must change your conception of using your bow, much near to the bridge.
So I have decided to switch to Obligato Solo Set. Another world; the only lack is that the first string, for a classical player like me, is too big in gauge. But it's only an experiment. I'm studying a lot of technique, and this string helps me to reinforce my left and right hand. But I'm thinking not to change them because the sound is more powerful in comparison to Corelli 370 Forte, and with the time and study, it's possibile to obtain the same agility of left hand and the same "sautillè" like Rabbath. But the sound is very similar to gut and very rich in the range harmonics. "Staccatissimo" (how can I say in English? ... "spiccato" or "big staccato") is incredible. All these things were impossible with Corellis. But, as you have said, it's a question of choice.

I would like to use Permanents Solo Set. I believe in Francois' words, and I've noted that a lot of great soloists use them. Probably they will be my future strings ... when I'll finish technical period of study.

About Jargars, I used them on an ancient 4/4 doublebass, Romeo Orsi ca. 1890. I didn't like them! Good sound and bow response, but the all set sounded different for each string. On this instrument a good 2nd string, very poor the 1st, and 3rd and 4th with no powerful sound. It's strange, because in Italy the great soloist Franco Petracchi uses Jargars from years on his incredible Gaetano Rossi (probably 1820). But I have observed that other important italian solists, generally, don't use them. Probably "one string for each instrument": there's no other reason. They preferred D'Addario Solo set, or mix set with 1st and 2nd Flexocore and 3rd and 4th D'Addario (D'Addario Orchestra "Solo" provides a better and more powerful response in the low range). Thomas Martin used this mix set during the recordings of his marvellous Bottesini's interpretations.

At the end in a studio recording you can use also a pure "metallic rope". But "living" it's a different thing, in my opinion.

Sorry for post lengthiness, and thanks again for your very interesting suggestions.

Best regards.

Vito Liuzzi

p.s.: ciao, Amin!

[Amin]

Hello Maestro Vito!

I read you've tried the Corelli360 medium and TxForte..

Would you talk about the differences between all these strings made by Corelli?

Did you find that forteTX are much like "conventional strings" or even this set is in a way "peculiar"..? I'm thinking especially of its playbility (for the right hand) and projection of sound and volume..

What would you say if you would compare a "conventional string" like a Pirastro or Thomastik with this Forte TX?
Do they have much less volume? I fear they do have less volume..That's my feeling when I'm "on" the instrument..but people hearing say there's much projection..
And my instrument actually feel open..

My question is due to the fact that this 370tx forte set (orchestral tuning!) I'm trying now is the first Corelli experience for me..and I've never tried the 360 sets.. or others gauges or tensions..
According to me the 370Fortetx string diameter is not so different from others strings..I don't think it is smaller than a Pirastro Flatchrome..don't you think? It is far different form an Obligato, or an Orig.Flatchrome, etc..
The main problem is how this string responds under the bow... don't you think?

I know that it would be much easier to write in Italian...!!!
Sorry..

..Grazie..

[Chasarms]

I don't know if they are currently available in Europe, but if opportunity allows, you might consider trying the new TI Belcanto.

They are remarkably easy to play for the sound you get. They have the arco power and projection of Flexocors but are more supple under the left hand and easier to start with the bow.

By FAR, the best bowing string I have played. (I have no experience with Corellis on my bass). I like the pizz sound as well. Straight jazzers don't seem to care for it.

My only beef with them is is the price. They are twice the expense of Corelli.

Charles

[Francois Blais]

Originally Posted by Amin

Hello Maestro Vito!

I read you've tried the Corelli360 medium and TxForte..

Would you talk about the differences between all these strings made by Corelli?

Corellis are available in two kinds: nickel wound and tungsten wound.
(in the tunsgten series, the D&G are nickel wound anyway)

360 series: tungsten, solo tuning (M and TX gauges)
370 series: tungsten, orchestra tuning (M, F and TX gauges)

380 series: nickel, orchestra tuning (M and TX gauges)
390 series: nickel, solo tuning (M and TX gauges)

[vitoliuzzi]

Thanks again to everyone for your comments ... Ciao, Amin (I beg your pardon but I know the "italian" Amin from a lot of time!!).

Francois has done the correct map of Corellis strings avaible on the market today. We can choose among different set or models, but I personally think that tungsten works better in comparison with nickel. Surely, Corelli uses Tungsten for having a very thin gauge and a better bow response. But at the end It depends from your instrument reaction; so it might work well on one instrument and worst on another. I think it's difficult, for acoustical instruments, to tell: this is the "truth". But one thing is probably sure, about Corellis: it's difficult to listen to the "real double bass sound". In my opinion, you might have the sensation of playing a string for doublebass, but at the end, If you could analyze the "spectrum" of harmonics produced, you might note, in a comparative diagram, that the richness of these sounds aren't present with Corellis. For this reason, the bow sound of Corellis is very different from Obligato, Permanent, D'addario, Original Flexore or similar models of strings (all metal or with a Perlon core, in example!). But with Corellis you have to change your way of bowing, and it's not easy for everyone. Probaly for jazz players It might be different, using amplifiers or pick up and so on. But I personally prefer a jazz player with Obligato, or Thomastick or with gut strings. Probaly the will play with less virtuosity, but I don't mind! Music is another thing!
Amin, the question of tension is important for every string. But with Corellis it's more important. A medium set it's very easy to play for left hand, but it might not give you a veru good response with bow. Everything changes when you use a "forte" tension: better bowings (expecially the Staccatissimo), more projection of sound and more power, but the right hand suffers a little bit (pay attention: projection and power of a sound are two different things. One doublebass can play very powerful "on the place" but not having a good projection of sound in a great hall. Sometimes the best instruments give you the sensation of not having a powerful sound, but then this sound travels a lot in the air and opens itself with a big range of harmonics. Naturally, the school of bow should teach ho to let travel the sound, or to obtain the maximum also with a chinese bass in laminated wood). But, sincerly, I havent' experimented a better projection provides by Corellis. Not only because I've used them on two different instruments, but also because every string maker asserts its string is the better in matter of projection. "Less mass more projection" is not a rule, sometime it's the opposite, and for some instruments.

About Bel Cantos, I asked to Thomastick if they delivered them in Italy, but It seems we must wait for a little time. I hope they build a Solo Set. I would like to test them. I think that Bel Cantos (Orchestra) are setted on one of Petracchi's doublebasses, because I have understood that Thomastick has sent him one set to test. But I don't know what Petracchi think about them. Surely, they will have a powerful sound, thinner in cauge, more reactive to the bow. But I don't know what about the quality of sound !!

My best regards

Vito Liuzzi

[Amin]

Thanks..!

I felt my instrument had more volume with Pirastro when I was "on" the instrument.
But everyone hearing say the opposite.. And that's probably true: today I let my instrument in the hands of my teacher,and I must say that the sounds runs better ,clearly and definite.. And the more I go away, the better is the sound.. Maybe my instrument definitely likes low tension strings.. But I have still to understand this string to get decent results..especially for bowing..

Maestro Petracchi has Belcanto on his Galbusera, and he is absolutely happy. He said it is a wonderful string especially for Orchestra and he's looking for another set..! He didn't like so much for soloing.. I don't know why. But he was positively impressed.
So,if even Maestro Petracchi was happy, I guess that's really a great string...

[vitoliuzzi]

Originally Posted by Amin

Thanks..!

I felt my instrument had more volume with Pirastro when I was "on" the instrument.
But everyone hearing say the opposite.. And that's probably true: today I let my instrument in the hands of my teacher,and I must say that the sounds runs better ,clearly and definite.. And the more I go away, the better is the sound.. Maybe my instrument definitely likes low tension strings.. But I have still to understand this string to get decent results..especially for bowing..

Maestro Petracchi has Belcanto on his Galbusera, and he is absolutely happy. He said it is a wonderful string especially for Orchestra and he's looking for another set..! He didn't like so much for soloing.. I don't know why. But he was positively impressed.
So,if even Maestro Petracchi was happy, I guess that's really a great string...

Dear "Amin",
probably or surely, I don't know, your instrument was too "stressed" from a string with more tension and mass. It's possible that the belly (is it the correct name?) was too pressed under Pirastros. If I have well understood, now you have setted Corellis with lower tension. In this way it's possible that the resonance's belly has improved, under a minor pressure on the bridge. The result might be more volume of sound and this one travels better. It's only one of my assumptions! But if yes, I would like to know, if it's possible, what you think about the changing of bow from string to string (expecially in fast changings). Perhaps do you note spurious noises in comparison with the Corellis? Because this is one of major problems with very thin "pure metallic" string. If no, it's probably because of your instrument has got a very sweet sound. But in one thing I'm sure: now you will be able to play in Rabbath or Garcia Fons style !!!

My best regards

Vito Liuzzi

[Amin]

I'm back to this post just to report that after some days of Orchestra-work I still like Corelli 370tx. My instrument seems to be more open. The sound runs like never before, and the instrument vibrate easily and well.
On my bass this is everything but not a bright string. Maybe they don't have a huge dark sound (original flexocors for instance..) but on my bass the sound has improved in quality and in projection. Even my colleagues told me this. And they are not Corelli-fans!
The sound is better if you walk away..even the volume is higher if you walk away.. incredible..With Pirastro Orig.Flat (anyway a string I really love..) it was the opposite: I had the perception of a lot of volume while playing..
Another positive point : I feared that this string wouldn't have merged the section, that this string wouldn't have mixed well with the ensemble.. absolutely not! They just worked fine and the section had a good feeling. I've been really satisfied..
Now I'm expecting to try Belcanto..
You know, every instrument has its string..

Or maybe I should stop trying so many strings..
Am I going slightly mad...?

[Amin]

Originally Posted by vitoliuzzi

I would like to know, if it's possible, what you think about the changing of bow from string to string (expecially in fast changings). Perhaps do you note spurious noises in comparison with the Corellis? Because this is one of major problems with very thin "pure metallic" string. If no, it's probably because of your instrument has got a very sweet sound.

Well, my instrument is not an important one..so, I don't think it has some particular quality..
But I fell that with Corelli bowings are easier (too mauch easier, that's the problem..) and changing strings is not problematic at all...I found that this Corelli is a very precise string..even for Orcheastral excerpts.. I can hear clearly lots of notes I couldn't hear before.. maybe becuase they are easier to play..