Tone and Tension

bassist1962 · #1 11-09-2006, 04:03 AM

Could you please tell me what the tonal and tension characteristics of the different types of core strings are?
Synthetic core, Gut core, Solid core. Rope/Braided core, Spiral core, etc. Would Superflexibles have the same growl to them as Spirocore, etc. Thank you.

**Francois Blais** · #2 11-09-2006, 06:37 AM

Growl is not just a matter of string construction and tension.
Much of it is in the hands, IMHO.
A good bassist can make orchestral strings growl, to some point.
Of course, the setup (string height, fingerboard scoop) are very important factors too.

I think it's quite hazardous to draw generalizations on tone versus the core because the whole string construction has to be considered.
Some gut strings are very thumpy while others have lots of sustain, for example.

bassist1962 · #3 11-09-2006, 05:12 PM

I guess what I am asking is what makes a Superflexible or a Flexocore string darker sounding than a Spirocore? Also does the core construction have anything to do with tension? If so how? Coming from the BG world, this is all new to me, and I am trying to get some point of reference of string construction to tone. E.G. Roundwound strings are bright sounding, Flatwound are dark, Half rounds are somewhere in the middle. There are many variables, but if I pick up a set of roundwounds I know what I can expect to hear. Are DB strings somewhat similar due to basic construction?

**Francois Blais** · #4 11-09-2006, 06:40 PM

Flexocors are steel orchestral strings.
Orchestral strings feature dampening material in the construction to reduce brightness and sustain.
Pizz strings don't use, or much less, dampening material.

The tension results from the mass of the whole string.
More mass = more tension (for the same string vibrating lenght)

BG strings have a much simpler design.
Roundwound = more flexible = more higher harmonics = brighter
Flatwound = stiffer = less higher harmonics = darker

The Superflexibles are not that much darker than Spiros, in my opinion. The core is different, braided cable for Supers, spiral braids for the Spiros, but there are probably other differences in the other wraps, under the outer flat ribbon.
Look at the Superflexible D string diameter in comparison to the Spiro!

This subject is complex, and if you browse the forum, you'll even find mathematical equations in some posts.

bassist1962 · #5 11-09-2006, 06:59 PM

Thanks Francois. This does help my quest. However, I am a musician, not a mathmetition (sp?).

Thomastik Spirocore G D A E
Solo .044 .061 .076 .103
Weich .046 .063 .079 .107
Medium .052 .070 .085 .111
Stark .054 .065 .090 .117

Thomastik Superflexible
Orchestra .052 .074 .079 .107

These are the guages from the sticky. I was wondering if this was a misprint, or if a Super D was actually that much thicker. Same thing with the D in the Mittle and Stark Spiros.

Uncletoad · #6 11-09-2006, 08:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassist1962

These are the guages from the sticky. I was wondering if this was a misprint, or if a Super D was actually that much thicker. Same thing with the D in the Mittle and Stark Spiros.

That Stark D should have an asterisk after it. That is exactly the measure of the string I have. It couldn't possibly be normal. I think it's a weirdo and wouldn't trust that one.

Jake deVilliers · #7 11-10-2006, 01:16 AM

"These are the gauges from the sticky. I was wondering if this was a misprint, or if a Super D was actually that much thicker."

Those measurements were straight off the strings. If I remember, I miked two different sets because of that anomaly.

..........I just went and re-measured a set on a bass here and that is what I got. Maybe .0735, but definitely on the chubby side.

If anyone has a set of Starks they could measure, we could use some confirmation of that Stark D.

bassist1962 · #8 11-10-2006, 03:28 AM

It seems like the numbers were flip-flopped, backwards, however you want to say it. Is it a balance issue? I read in another thread of someone using Spiros, and getting the growl they liked. They changed out the D and G to something more subtle, and it changed the sound of the entire instrument. The growl of the Spiros disappeared, etc. This is why I am asking about the core construction, and tension versus tone. I like the solid core strings I have now, but I don't know the tension of them, and the E string in particular seems a bit too subtle for me unless I really hit it.

billyfalconer · #9 11-10-2006, 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francois

Orchestral strings feature dampening material in the construction to reduce brightness and sustain...
Pizz strings don't use, or much less, dampening material.

What's the damping material that is used in orchestral strings and not in pizz strings?

**Francois Blais** · #10 11-10-2006, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassist1962

Thomastik Superflexible
Orchestra .052 .074 .079 .107
These are the guages from the sticky. I was wondering if this was a misprint, or if a Super D was actually that much thicker.

The Superflex D is indeed unusually thick.
The one I have is that thick, so it's standard.

Quote:

I read in another thread of someone using Spiros, and getting the growl they liked. They changed out the D and G to something more subtle, and it changed the sound of the entire instrument. The growl of the Spiros disappeared, etc. This is why I am asking about the core construction, and tension versus tone.

This has to do with how the instrument reacts with different tensions!
Another term in the math equation!

In my experiments with EUBs, I've found out that putting lighter top strings was relieving tension on the bottom ones, and I was getting more growl and sustain.
A double-bass is a complex vibrational system, unlike a BG, which has less variables.
You have to put the instrument into the equation if you want to know more about strings.
And, as I previously said, there's the player's hands on top of that!

**Francois Blais** · #11 11-10-2006, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by billyfalconer

What's the damping material that is used in orchestral strings and not in pizz strings?

Depends on the brands and design.
Jargar uses some kind of plastic.
Most brands will use silk and/or similar stuff.

bassist1962 · #12 11-10-2006, 02:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francois

In my experiments with EUBs, I've found out that putting lighter top strings was relieving tension on the bottom ones, and I was getting more growl and sustain.

Is this why some players use say a Spiro E and A, and Flexocore D and G? Besides the fact (as I read somewhere) the brighter bottom, darker top.

**Francois Blais** · #13 11-10-2006, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassist1962

Is this why some players use say a Spiro E and A, and Flexocore D and G? Besides the fact (as I read somewhere) the brighter bottom, darker top.

Hmm, I don't feel the Flexocors D & G to be lighter tension than Spiros D & G. They are quite stiff in my book. (they are loaded with dampening stuff)
It's difficult, without actual tension measurements, to tell if a string is high tension, or just stiff due to its construction.
As you can see, DB strings are very complex and there are a lot of products available, making them hard to compare without objective parameters.
Most of the time, this is just subjective review.

bassist1962 · #14 11-11-2006, 11:16 AM

So it comes down to the same issue it always does; Finding what works for you to achieve the sound you are after, which takes a lot of time and experimentation. What would be a subjective parameter?

**Francois Blais** · #15 11-11-2006, 12:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassist1962

So it comes down to the same issue it always does; Finding what works for you to achieve the sound you are after, which takes a lot of time and experimentation.

Indeed!

Quote:

What would be a subjective parameter?

Many things!
Comfort, playability, balance, happiness, ...

I also recommend you read this thread:
Can a certain set of strings make such a huge difference by itself???

bassist1962 · #16 11-11-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by francois

Comfort, playability, balance, happiness, ...

That is what I am looking for.

The previous owner of this bass used Gut strings, but had problems with the soundpost falling. If I am correct, Guts are generally low tension. Would this cause the soundpost problem? If so, would a soundpost replacement be in order if I decided on something like Obligatos, or another low tension string?

dfp · #17 11-11-2006, 07:34 PM

it's been a while since i messed with a whole set of Superflexibles, but recently i put on the Superflex. G with my medium spiros... i was surprised to find the Superflex G "stiffer" feeling than the Spiro G, enough so that i took it off after several minutes.

then i checked a string tension chart, the Superflex are actually higher tension than the medium spiros... so why do they have a name like "Superflexible"? compared to what? they're pretty decent strings, still, but i'm happier with a looser feeling string like the spiro medium...

as for a falling sound post, could be that low tension strings don't push the top down w/ enough force to grip the post securely... just guessing. obligatos may be higher tension than the guts you spoke of... this topic might pick up some good advice in the "setup and repair" category, good luck

bassist1962 · #18 11-12-2006, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dfp

as for a falling sound post, could be that low tension strings don't push the top down w/ enough force to grip the post securely... just guessing. obligatos may be higher tension than the guts you spoke of... this topic might pick up some good advice in the "setup and repair" category, good luck

This was my thinking. Low tension would not have enough force to hold things in place.

Back to my original thread topic: My conclusions are Tension doesn't have to do with tone as much as construction does.Just because a string says Ropecore, there are many other factors to consider. It is more Arco versus Pizz. Arco having dampening materials in the construction, Pizz none, or not so much so. If I am looking for growl and sustain, look at pizz strings. This being an acoustic instrument, it is more of physical variables. Just because you sound good with a certain setup, doesn't mean that the next guy will be able to do anything on it. My instrument may not be able to handle the same set up as yours has. High tension strings may rip my bass apart, low tension may not hold things together.

Am I thinking correctly?

**Francois Blais** · #19 11-12-2006, 10:09 AM

I see you have asked that soundpost question in the Setup&Repair forum, which is the right place to ask.
I think you need to bring your instrument to a qualifed luthier for inspection and general setup.

**Francois Blais** · #20 11-12-2006, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassist1962

Back to my original thread topic: My conclusions are Tension doesn't have to do with tone as much as construction does.Just because a string says Ropecore, there are many other factors to consider. It is more Arco versus Pizz. Arco having dampening materials in the construction, Pizz none, or not so much so. If I am looking for growl and sustain, look at pizz strings. This being an acoustic instrument, it is more of physical variables. Just because you sound good with a certain setup, doesn't mean that the next guy will be able to do anything on it. My instrument may not be able to handle the same set up as yours has. High tension strings may rip my bass apart, low tension may not hold things together.

Am I thinking correctly?

Perfect!

You summed everything in a brilliant post, which could go into a sticky someday!