Velvet strings megathread part I

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Put them both on a scale.. See which one weights more.

Diameter and Mass are two different things. Metal is heaver than Sheep Gut.......


Also, if you guys don't leave the set on for a few weeks or few months, how can you really judge them?

Unless they are really Fantastic or Suck right out of the package within the first 5 minutes... you can't tell without giving it time.

Gut Strings are not being used much by Orchestra or Jazz pros anymore... There's a reason for that....

[Adrian Cho]

Yes diameter and mass are two different things. The core of the 180s is Silk - probably not that different in weight to gut - probably lighter if anything. The 180s windings are really superfine - if anything I'd say there is less metal there than on a typical Oliv or Eudoxa.

I had them on for a few months. I'm not arguing about whether these strings are better than gut or whether gut is good or bad. I was just saying that the strings are trying to emulate gut to some extent (as many strings are) and they are thinner than the typical gut string and can't respond as much - quite possibly because there is less mass there for starters.

[Monte]

Originally Posted by Adrian Cho

What I'm saying is that the limit for those strings is lower than it is for gut. No doubt about it. I'm not saying you can't play acoustic with them, just that they are not as loud as gut and when you start to really dig into them, the point at which the tone suffers, is lower than it is for gut strings. To me that's no surprise as there is less mass than the typical gut string. I agree they are not much thinner than Obligatos, Spiros, etc. but I was comparing them to Olivs, Eudoxas, Chordas, etc.

And yes your bass is huge Monte so I think that's definitely one factor in your being to able play acoustically with them in such a situation as you've described.

Not to belabor the point, but I'm still not going to agree with this statement. Remember, I was the one who used Olivs/ Eidoxas for 2 years.

There is no point where the tone suffers if you pull hard on the 180's. It just doesn't. The sound is great the louder you pizz. If anything, someone who didn't lay into the strings might not get enough good tone pizz. My bass is no quieter than with the Eudoxas. Volume and projection are very subjective to the person playing, and I hear a lot of people who THINK they are loud, and it might be under their ear. My old Juzek was loud, but it didn't bounce off back walls like my Klotz copy. Under my ear, I could believe the Juzek is louder, but the conductor sure yells a lot more at me for playing too loud than she did with my Juzek...

While I'm picky about strings, I came to my own conclusion about a strings affect on volume. I think about 99% of it is psycho-acoustic. The bass matters a lot more than what string you have on. That is why half the people say that gut is louder, the other half say steel. Some say low tension strings make the bass louder, others softer. I think part of this is actually the fundamental of the note being more or less present in relation to the harmonics. I no longer pay any attention to which string is loudest. I'd love to see a test with dB meters.

I know what you were saying about the relative thin-ness, but I wanted to remind people that you use those strings the size of pencils !! Other than the G, I compared them by eyeball to an old set of Eudoxas, and there is little difference. The G is not as thick. If someone were to get those thinking they would be like Corellis, they would be in for a big surprise.

I still love gut, but it is just too damn expensive and I found I still sound like me regardless. For me, the Velvets make it easy to get the sound in my head, bow a million times easier, and being that every bassist I play (pizz) in front of thinks I'm using gut, it is an acceptable compromise.

Although I have been tempted to put a full unwrapped gut set on the Juzek for fun.............

Monte

[dfp]

where did everybody go? ...holding my breath for more comments on the Orchestra Pitch 180. i suspect i would not like the lower tension of SUIT 180, and that's the one we've heard so much about from Monte (much appreciated, tho), so could we hear more from anyone using the higher tension 180? if anyone can contrast them with Obligatos and Flexocors that would be a big help.

is it too soon to know, those of you who have just switched?
tension? acoustic volume? BASS frequencies? (there's a novel concern!). pizz qualities?
is anybody doing any "virtuous" arco on them (Dragonetti, Beethoven, French Art Songs from the early 20th Century, etc)?
thank you,
Dave P

[FidgetStone]

Almost two weeks into the 180 regular orchestral strings:
- Pizz is almost as good as Obligatos. Much closer than I had hoped for in fact.
- The 180's bow better. How much better? My arco is so poor I can only tell that there is an improvement.

I'll report more after Christmas. Right now I have to learn a bunch of choir type tunes for my church in hand killing keys like 'Ab'. Hey, and let's not forget the obligitory two or more modulations . . . Singers are starting to get on my nerves.

Merry Christmas Everybody . . .

[Pete G]

First, how high do you have your strings? At the moment, mine are barely higher than where I had my Flexocors (maybe 6mm on the treble side, 7 or 8 on the bass side) and the volume doesn't seem to suffer at all, except on the E (really a long C). I want to raise the bass side a bit, but I'd be happy to keep the treble side really low.

Second, is it safe to clean these strings with a copper scouring pad (Chore Boy), as I do steel strings? I'm not sure how hard the surface is on the 180s.

And DP, I will respond further. I was out of the 180 business for a couple of weeks while a defective C string was being replaced. I've been back at it for a day or so, but the strings are still settling and the bass is still adjusting to them, so it's premature for me to say anything more about them now.

[Monte]

Originally Posted by Pete G

First, how high do you have your strings? At the moment, mine are barely higher than where I had my Flexocors (maybe 6mm on the treble side, 7 or 8 on the bass side) and the volume doesn't seem to suffer at all, except on the E (really a long C). I want to raise the bass side a bit, but I'd be happy to keep the treble side really low.

Second, is it safe to clean these strings with a copper scouring pad (Chore Boy), as I do steel strings? I'm not sure how hard the surface is on the 180s.

Pete,

I have mine not much higher than that. Probably 7-8 on the treble, and 9-10 on the bass side. I had mine much higher on the Eudoxas and even Obligatos, but I don't find I lose any volume with these. Any lower though, and I would get to much noise when I pizz heavy.

I just rub at it vigorously with a cleaning cloth, but I can't imagine the chore boy would hurt. These strings are tough. I subbed on a dixieland gig not long ago, and they held up to slapping even, so I don't think the windings are fragile like they were on the Eudoxas.

Monte

[Pete G]

I have a bad habit -- I'm probably not the only one -- of playing with too much tension in my right hand. I have tended to use the hand and fingers to force the bow into the string, probably compromising my tone, but in any event defying classic technique of letting one's arm weight and the torque of the grip to supply the pressure while keeping the hand loose and supple.

In the couple of days I've been playing the 180s, they're forcing me to use good technique. You simply can't apply "muscle" to these strings with your hand -- that only crunches the sound. However, when you play with a loose hand and a light, fast bow, the tone is pretty interesting.

[Pete G]

Since the new Compass 180s came out, Velvet has run a big ad in the bass magazines featuring a testimonial from one Hans Rulofson (spelled Roelofsen on the Velvet website), described as the principal bassist with the Netherlands Philharmonic Orchestra.

Since I don't know many other symphony players using these strings, I did a search for this gentleman, in hopes that I might send him a question by email. Unfortunately, he is not listed as a member of the section with the Netherlands Philharmonic on their website.

Does anyone know anything about Mr. Rulofson, or perhaps have an email address for him?
Thanks!

[Pete G]

I've had the 180s on for two weeks and I've worked them hard over that stretch. These are very interesting strings with some very positive qualities, but I'm beginning to think they aren't the answer for me. I play only classical music in symphony orchestras (and very rarely in the pit for a G&S show). I need a string that bows easily, has a great darkish tone, and that really responds in terms of tone, pitch, and volume under the bow at a variety of tempi and dynamics.

Here's the rub: I can live with the G and D, maybe the A; but the E string just sounds dead and weak to me. It doesn't have the volume, projection, or sustain that I need. It also doesn't hold a pitch well in the first two positions at low dynamics, especially on upbows.

I think these are great pizz strings; great for ballad-style arco solos; maybe great for people seeking a gut alternative. But I don't think I'm going to choose these strings first for playing the first page of the Mahler Second Symphony, and to me that's the test of the string I need.

If any of you VelvetHeads think I'm missing something, I am (as Ross Perot said) all ears.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Pete, is your Bass a clear sounding Bass naturally, dark or bright. Please tell us the general tone of your Bass. I think the Bass itself has something to do with how well it responds as well with the Bow. I have Obligatos on 4 differennt Basses and they suond different on each Bass. It must be the Bass then I think.. right? Same Bow and same player, same strings.. only the Bass changes..

Now.... Which String do you prefer for the Darkest-sounding, most responsive-to-the Bow that you have tried or used for any period of time if not these as you have mentioned??

[Pete G]

Ken, I agree with your conclusion that a string search is always a custom search for the particular bass and its owner.

Every bass has its unique characteristics, and every player has a unique set of playing characteristics and types of music played. My guess is some of the guys who have contributed on this thread would love the way my bass sounds with the 180s, but they're probably playing different things than I am and seeking a different sound than the one I seek.

The bass is a 2002 Arvi. It has a great natural clarity, the capacity to play at a great volume, and is inherently bright. I've been seeking to balance the brightness of the bass with darker sounding strings.

So far, the best solution I've found is a mixed set: Flexocor G and D; Helicore Orchestra medium A and long C (E). I may go back to that, but if I bail on the 180s as seems likely, my next stop will probably be a complete set of Permanents.

[Monte]

I'll go with what Ken said, the bass makes a huge difference on the strings.

I use the 180 SUIT and not the orchestral version, but my bass is dark.

This combo worked very well for doing all the Beethoven 16th notes last season. Looking forward to rehearsals which start next week.

[KSB - Ken Smith]

Pete, would you believe I used the exact same combo on my Martini when I first got it. The Bass was Shipped with some Helicores in the Bag. I didn't like them too much on the Shen so I put the Old set of Flex that were on my Gilkes b4. The were about 20 years old or maybe more. Purplish red...

The E string broke in the peg box from being used so much so I tried the Helicores. The 'E' sounded nice and Fat. I changed the 'A' next. It too sounded better than the Flex. too. Now I decide to take the other two off... Yuck.... too thin sounding. The Flex 'G' and 'D' sounded great as-is. After the Fingerboard job and Gear/Ebony-Plate Job, I put Obligatos on..

Hey, any of you guys remember when Labella Came out with their Orchestra Strings around 1978 or '79?.. 7710 or 7720s?

The Package had a guy playing Pizz on a nice big Italian Bass with a Tri-tone on the 'G' and 'D' String.. Looked like an E7 chord or something?....... I just got a set of those to try and the company says they are the exact same formula they made back in Astoria Queens in the late 70s...... Anyone here used the orchestra set b4?....... Oh, the package is very different now that is was then..

[Pete G]

Monte, are you playing a regular E string, or do you have an extension and a long C string?

[Aroneng]

I have the 180's on two basses. One with the extended E (c-extension) and the other bass with a standard E.

As a comment to your previous posts, the Permanents might not suit your Arvi well. From posts and readings they seem to be a brighter string.

[Pete G]

I asked because I just had a second straight long C go bad on me. The first was defective out of the package, and so I'm not surprised it unravelled. I was surprised, though, when the second one unravelled at the same spot after just over two weeks of use.

The second unravelled at the point where the string pulls a, well, 180, at the top of the fingerboard extension.

Both strings were installed by an expert luthier, so it was not an installation issue.

[Monte]

Originally Posted by Pete G

Monte, are you playing a regular E string, or do you have an extension and a long C string?

Regular E.

Monte

[Baar]

Hello. I've been finding lots of helpful info in these forums for a year, but this is my first post.
After playing on spirocores for a year, I bought a set of Velvet Garbos. They sound great, but there's a buzz on the G string in the D# to F area - even after I raised the action some. I Had no buzz with spiros, so I'm thinking, it should be possible to find a G string that works, but it should match the rest in sound. I play pizz only. Any opinions on what I could try?

Baar Stenvik

[brianrost]

Originally Posted by Baar

Any opinions on what I could try?

Have a repairman look to see if the neck needs planing.

Guts move more than steel strings so will always buzz sooner. If it's only in one area of the neck it suggests the fingerboard needs some maintenance.