What makes a string play easily at the the end of the fingerboard (arco)

[Tommy el Gato]

Particularly, this thread refers to G-strings. I don't think this comes up very often, but I've found that some strings are easier to play at the end of the fingerboard than others. That is to say, once you get up into that third octave, are you struggling to maintain sound and has the entire concept of pitch-focus gone out the window? I'm wondering if anyone has any input on what elements in a string allow for that (assuming good technique). My general thinking has been that smaller diameter strings do better with this, and I think it has less to tension or stiffness, and here's why:

I've found Zyex appalling in this respect. Far and away it's the biggest string I've had on my bass and I struggled with sound beyond D in thumb position.

Spirocore Stark was much better, but again, getting up into the third octave of the G-string was frightening.

A Flexocore '92 passed the "third octave D-scale" test swimmingly. It's also the smallest string I've had on my bass.

A Permanent did very well also and so has a dirty old Helicore Hybrid Medium. (actually the helicore had only 2-years use, but was virtually never cleaned by the previous user).

Between the Stark, the Permanent, and the Helicore, I believe there's only .001" to .002" of difference in diameter, but a significant difference in tension and stiffness, which is why I call that element into question - albeit hesitantly because of how stiff the Flex '92 is. But I'm almost more inclined to believe that .001" of an inch makes more difference than you'd believe.

Is it strange that I'm more concerned with right now this than eating turkey tomorrow?

[Lorddaftplayer]

Just make sure the core of each string is not twisted and you will get the most out of whatever strings you like,
Tommy. A string with a twisted core will never sound right.

Party On!

[DoubleMIDI]

I don't understand why twisted cores might be a problem. I don't think so.

I think the important things are:
a) string stiffness/flexibility (how easy is it to bend the string, how springy is the string off the bass)
b) elasticity (how much longer gets a string with a given tension close to then tension when not played)
c) damping (how long is the sustain of the pizzed string)
d) smoothness of the outer surface of the string (how well will the bow grab the string, but too much grab might not be better)

Diameter often influenced stiffness, but it depends on the material. Thick solid cores are often stiff, a lot of new strings are also rather stiff.
Elasticity is important to press down the string because is is hard to do that down the fingerboard without a rather low action. The force on the finger might be so high that it is nearly imposible to press the string onto the fingerboard (the string might cut into your finger and does not touch the fingerboard with the needed force). It is not so much a property of the string but of the system string-setup-player. So setup is important too.

My own experiences with high C strings (I checked about 14 different strings) were, that strings with a low diameter and lower tension are hard to press down on the fingerboard (they cut into the finger if less than 1mm diameter, maybe somebody playing several hours a day can do it better) and sound thin up to the fifth, but very open down the fingerboard. Thicker strings have a higher tension and therefor cut almost as much into the finger than the lower tension strings, sound good almost everywhere, maybe except in the highest positions. These were all braided or twisted steel core strings. The more flexible (less stiff) ones did it better than the stiffer ones, but over time even stiff braided or twisted steel core strings get more flexible. (As long as you don't use a solid steel core, but these strings sound much too brilliant and are not very elastic.)
Solid core synthetic strings are stiff and very much damped. They don't sound good in higher positions (depending on the diameter of the core they are more or less stiff). Braided core synthetic strings might work better because they are (or get) flexible (soon), but are more damped by construction.
Naked gut is a bit stiff at the beginning but this will be reduced over playing time. But gut is still damped like the braided synthetic strings. The elasticity may differ from synthetic braided core strings. Wound gut has a much smaller core diameter and might work better from the point of stiffness, at least after some time of core stretching so it gets more flexible.

These are my ideas and experiences and on high C (which is a bit more extreme than the G). I don't think this absolute truth, just my opinion based on experience and thinking. I hope others write about their ideas and experiences too.

[Tommy el Gato]

I think we have a stray from the other side. :P (referring to the first response)

You know, I haven't even thought much about the issue of getting the string down to the fingerboard in this register. I play on a stool and use my weight with regards to the left hand (and right, but this is a strings thread, so I won't get into that), so I never really feel like I'm struggling to get the string down. However, I can see why not having the string as securely into the finger-board as is possible can result in some "speaking" issues. I think the word "speaking" refers more to the attribute I was thinking of when I started the thread, at least in our vernacular.

I can also see why I or anyone would fail to get the string securely into the fingerboard, not because of how stiff the string is, but due to being afraid of getting the pitch right. It's the same way that in any other register in addition to this one, a rookie bow arm might back away from the bridge in order to play more softly and round out the tone in fear of an out-of-tune note. This might have something to do with how the darkest string G-string I've ever played did the best at most extreme registers of my instrument. However, the brightest string I've used also does exceptionally well also. (I consider the Permanent to be brighter con arco than a spirocore, although the pizz sound has less growl and character).

[eerbrev]

Part of this is technique, but part of this is strings too. the teacher whom I have recently done some study with advocates a stiffer string, with a lot of relaxation from both the left and right hands and arms.

The strings he recommended to me were

Dominants
Bel Cantos
edit: Spirocores
Flexocores

All really bowable. From what I can discern (and also from what I picked up at a string seminar put on by Thomastik) the stiffer a string is, the less roll, the cleaner the start that is possible. Clean starts seem to make for easier playing, especially up high.

The other part is technique. lots of relaxing and allowing your natural arm weight to fall into the string from both hands. Also, whenever the sound isn't to your liking, check where you're bowing, and make sure it is close enough to the bridge to make the appropriate sound for where you're playing.

This is just stuff that works for me. Hope it helps!

eerbrev

[Tommy el Gato]

Interesting you should mention Dominants. They seemed interesting to me because of alleged stiffness (which is my preference for pizz purposes) without having the kind of tension that would choke my top. However, my previous experiences (noted in this thread) lead me to believe that having a diameter larger than a spiro stark would make the string harder to play in the extremes of the upper register. This coupled with issues of reliability and longevity, depending upon the bass and the player, have kept me from trying them so far. I'm still intrigued though.

I whole-heartedly agree on the subject of weight and technique, eebrev. In spite of not being a student of the Rabbath tradition, I heard frequently as a beginner the phrase "use your weight."

[DoubleMIDI]

@eerbrev:
I doubt that Flexocore (I only have a pre92 version) and Belcanto are stiff. Maybe your teacher means higher tension (than low tension).

And there is not much weight you can put on strings if your bass is standing up. I'm rather sure this weight stuff comes from people playing in a sitting position or by simulating a sitting position by using an angled endpin letting the bass fall towards the player. I don't want to say this is wrong, it isn't, but depending on your bass playing position it is useable or not.

[eerbrev]

Originally Posted by DoubleMIDI

@eerbrev:
I doubt that Flexocore (I only have a pre92 version) and Belcanto are stiff. Maybe your teacher means higher tension (than low tension).

And there is not much weight you can put on strings if your bass is standing up. I'm rather sure this weight stuff comes from people playing in a sitting position or by simulating a sitting position by using an angled endpin letting the bass fall towards the player. I don't want to say this is wrong, it isn't, but depending on your bass playing position it is useable or not.

Stiffness, I guess, is not the right word. the real quality that you are looking for is a LACK of roll in this case. a Torsional stiffness, i guess.

eerbrev

[iiipopes]

See my "Don't Laugh..." thread. I've not been able to develop good arco because of terminal cramping in my right hand - don't go there, I've tried everything, and my teacher is a bassist both performing and teaching that I have known since junior high school.

But the D'addario Prelude G string I could actually pull a decent tone out of all the way up and down. It doesn't twang, and seems to be a good match for a variety of different strings, from Bels to Spiro Mitts.

[Tommy el Gato]

Originally Posted by DoubleMIDI

@eerbrev:
I doubt that Flexocore (I only have a pre92 version) and Belcanto are stiff. Maybe your teacher means higher tension (than low tension).

And there is not much weight you can put on strings if your bass is standing up. I'm rather sure this weight stuff comes from people playing in a sitting position or by simulating a sitting position by using an angled endpin letting the bass fall towards the player. I don't want to say this is wrong, it isn't, but depending on your bass playing position it is useable or not.

I found the Flex '92s to be especially stiff. Not sure about Bel Canti. I've only played them on other peoples' basses and I remember them not really feeling spongy, but not really tight either.

With regard to the weight thing: Yeah, the stool is the thing that makes the difference. You'd be surprised how much you can relax the right hand when standing, but having the bass leaning into you sets you up so that neither hand has to use any muscle whatsoever.

(trying not to derail this from a strings thread into a technique thread, even though technique plays into it, but this stuff has been discussed a million times over in the classical technique section, no doubt)