bluegrass sounds

[wdfoto]

I broke a D string Friday night during a practice session with my bluegrass band. Not even playing hard. They were steel on steel, flat wound. They were on the bass when I got it so I dont know brand, (maybe red label). So Im in the market for a new set for the best bluegrass sound. A lot of people are telling me to go gut. What is everyones advice and please suggest the maker and model of strings.


52 Kay with some history

[M Ramsey]

If you want to keep steel strings, Helicore Orchestral strings used to do it for me. They had a bit less tension underneath the left hand than Thomastic Spirocores.

I have 2 basses, one with gut and one with simulated gut. I use the gut bass when I'm playing inside, in a stable environment, since the gut strings are very prone to have tuning problems in the heat and humidity of many BG jams and festivals.

The simulated guts are Velvet Animas. These have a copper winding and in that regard, would feel somewhat like the steel strings you are used to playing. They would be lower tension strings as compared to the steel strings. They don't have any more tuning problems than steel strings, AFTER they have settled in (about 2 weeks).

You will probably hear other opinions on these recommendations, and that's what they all are, including mine. JUST OPINIONS.

Experiment with other folks' basses and their setups to see what impresses you and then make your move. If unsure, find a string to replace the one you broke and travel on that way until you can experiment.

[gomez hacienda]

Steel IS the way to go for bluegrass nowadays. Most players use them. You're going to get more volume and sustain if you need it. Thomastik Spirocores in mittel or medium guage would be my string of choice. I believe Barry Bales uses them or at least very similar. They have a big sound and once they break in, they sound great. It depends on your bass, but if I really had to have a "gut-like" sound, I'd try Innovation Super Silvers. Many rockabilly slappers like 'em. Of course that's not bluegrass.

Gut might give you some tuning stability problems at those outdoor summer fests. They just don't project like steel. Especially when your behind a banjo and a couple of flat-pickers.

M Ramsey mentions Helicore Orchs...they're good, but they're primarily for arco, I like to have the sustain that Spiros offer. Or maybe Helicore Hybrids. I just happen to feel the Thomastiks are a much better string...and they last FOREVER.

gomez

[M Ramsey]

Gomez mentions Bales and strings. I know Barry personally. He's the one that turned me on to Helicore Orchestral Heavies at one time.

Now, whether he's still playing those, I don't know. I think he's backed off to Helicore Orchestral mediums. The reason we liked those strings is the fact they didn't have that nasally, bright sound for the first 2 weeks like Spirocores do.

If I find a pair of moments, I may call Bales and ask him what he's using these days.

[mchildree]

I started out with Spiros and Helicore Pizz Mediums on my Cleveland, and they worked pretty well, but when I moved to Obligatos and then to Innovation Super Silvers, the bass just really "woke up". What I like about the pseudo gut strings (Obligatos, Super Silvers) is that there is less sustain than steel strings and you don't need to work as hard to keep notes muted. BIG help in the studio! You need to leave space for everything else.

This is my opinion only, but although I'm a huge Barry Bales fan, I don't think the stuff he's playing with AKUS is necessarily going to dictate the same needs as most mainstream bluegrass players. Their material is more "airy" and he can use more sustain, etc. I think I've heard where Mark Fain with Ricky Skaggs uses Obligatos. Really, you'll find a thousand personal choices. You have to go with what works on your bass and your style.

[Steve Killingsworth]

It all depends on the sound you are after. If you just want a dull percussive thump, nylons are hard to beat. If you want a more musical but still darker tone, consider a hybrid. Obligatos will give you a mellow organic sound and are easy on the fingers. I used them for a couple of years before returning to Spirocore orchs. However, for the last several months I have gone with Animas and really like them.

[martinc]

wdfoto:

Whatever string makes your bass sound its best will be good for bluegrass.
Each bass likes the correct tension. You just have to experiment to find out what works. You may also have to move your soundpost a bit to bring out the best sound no matter what string you use.
In general, Obligato's (synthetic), Spirocore Weichs and Sprirocore Mittels (steel), Velvets , G and D guts with steel A and E.....would be good selections to start experimenting.
And finally..in addition to strings and setup.....don't forget your hand strength. The stronger your hands, the better control you will have to get the best sound out of your bass .
Good luck.

[Whit Townsend]

different basses, different set ups, and most of all, different players, will benefit from different strings.

I've come to the conclusion that most of the qualities of the sound that matter come from the player. So use what you like, and set your bass up accordingly.

[Gufenov]

Originally Posted by mchildree

...when I moved to Obligatos and then to Innovation Super Silvers, the bass just really "woke up".

Exactly my experience. I'm using the Super Silvers now, and I'm very pleased. They're a lot easier on the fingers, too.

[Aleph5]

Having used Spiros and Helis (Hybrids, in my case), and then changing to Obligatos and LaBella black nylons (on my other bass), I'm surprised anyone would recommend Spiros or Helicores for bluegrass. Yes, YMMV etc., but I don't see how the excess sustain and metallic brightness best serve the genre. Unless, of course, you don't experience those qualities in your situation. I think it's safe to say, though, that all Spiros sustain more than most other strings; not as safe to say they're always bright/metallic, agreed.

Nonetheless, I think bluegrass needs more thump, and "organic" tone, characteristics not known to be exemplified by Spiros or Helicores. If you don't care for Oblis, the LaBellas are reasonably priced, good-feeling, loud, low maintenance, etc. I've not tried the others, but would have high hopes for Animas (or Garbos) or the Innovations mentioned. Or maybe darker Thomastiks: Dominants, etc.

P.S. See Bobby King's recommendations. I can vouch for his tone!

[oystein]

Hi,
I am lucky with Animas on my bass for Bluegrass and similar music. Big organc sound which cuts through. Consider some time for the strings/bass/yourself to settle in with this strings.

rgds oystein

[demon666]

You could check out Innovation RAB's, Eurosonics, Clef guts from Upton, and Jargars which are pretty dull for a steel string.

[Bobby King]

Originally Posted by Aleph5

P.S. See Bobby King's recommendations. I can vouch for his tone!

Wow, I'm flattered Aleph5! Are you from Nashville, and what is your name?

Well, for bluegrass, I'd recommend a gut or gut-like string. On my King bass, I'm currently using plain gut G&D and roundwound gut-core E&A. But, it can be hard to find good gut lower strings that aren't huge and have decent tone. The E's in particular can suck if you don't buy expensive boutique brands. I have a Roth E ("new old stock" I found) on there now which is one of the best I've ever had, along with a Lenzner A and Efrano D&G. I've also used Pirastro Pizzicato for the E&A which I like too. I've seen people mix gut uppers with all types of lower strings - gut, steel, synthetic. There's no question that gut is higher maintenance than steel as far as care and tuning, but they are worth it if you love that sound and feel.

I've used Animas in the past and they are an excellent string, but I still prefer real gut for my King Bass. Animas still have a bit of metallic quality, more suited to jazz, IMO. I have another bass, a Strunal Hybrid, with a Obligato/Olive combo which is also a setup I've been happy with, but I use that mostly for arco and jazz pizz.

In general, and of course these are my opinions, I find that gut gets more punch, fundamental, and is ultimately heard and felt more than steel (for this kind of music anyway). In addition, I find that by using an Underwood pickup in combination with gut (bass side only), I can get a good, loud amplified tone without feedback or annoying overtones.

Having said that, I've heard Barry Bales and others use steel and get a great sound. It really can depend on the bass. I recently played on a bill with the Chris Hillman/Herb Peterson band and their bassist, Bill Bryson, was using old Spiros and they sounded like gut on his bass, not sustainy at all.

I've played on the Grand Old Opry a fair amount and I observe that it's about 50/50 as far as gut versus steel among the bluegrass guys. The ones that use steel often use some muting - foam, towel, etc, behind the tailpiece, or else one of those rolling mutes that go on the strings below the bridge.

Most of my favorite bluegrass and country players use gut -- Dennis Crouch, Dave Roe, Kevin Grant, Billy Linneman, Bob Moore and the late, great Roy Huskey Junior. My friend Jay Weaver, who plays for Dolly Parton, loves Supernils on his Kay bass. Some of the other synthetics aren't bad too, but I feel that Obligato is more of a jazz string.

Once again, there's many ways to skin a cat, and these are only my opinions, and we all know what those are like!

[martinc]

[quote=Aleph5]I'm surprised anyone would recommend Spiros or Helicores for bluegrass. Yes, YMMV etc., but I don't see how the excess sustain and metallic brightness best serve the genre.

Aleph 5:

Spiro's (usually Weichs) with gut G and D have been used by many bass players over the years as the standard gut/steel combination. A new Weich usually take around 3 weeks to get rid of the "zing" and then settles into a very solid sounding string with a good focussed note that matches well with the gut.
And the list of Spiro bluegrass users is as long as your arm. Many posts have been written about this.
As for Helicores...I would agree. None of my Kays, my Eberle or my King ever sounded good with any Helicore string.
Other strings that have worked well for me are Dominants (but not as good as the gut/spiro combo), Obligato's (but they have a playing life of around 6 months) and Corelli 380 TX. I have tried many,many more but removed them shortly afterwards.
Here's what should tell the tale to see if your strings are helping your bass: firmly hit the C on the A string and then the G on the E string. If the bass does not respond with a solid, full note that matches the volume of the G and D strings when noted, you need to keep on looking for something else...or try moving your soundpost before you give up on them.
Strings alone are not the complete answer. The bass, set up and how you play, count for a lot.
Always strive to get the best sound your bass can produce.

[Bobby King]

[quote=martinc]

Originally Posted by Aleph5

Here's what should tell the tale to see if your strings are helping your bass: firmly hit the C on the A string and then the G on the E string. If the bass does not respond with a solid, full note that matches the volume of the G and D strings when noted, you need to keep on looking for something else...or try moving your soundpost before you give up on them.
Strings alone are not the complete answer. The bass, set up and how you play, count for a lot.
Always strive to get the best sound your bass can produce.

I agree that response on those lower notes is an acid test. In particular, many plywood basses don't give great response on the low end but you can get the most out of your bass with a good setup and the right strings. The string's tension can really be a factor. Some basses really like more or less tension from the strings. Tensions vary quite a bit among the various types of strings that are available. You find the right one and your bass goes "Ahh!" But that can take a lot of experimenting. I read a funny thing here recently where someone said you're not really an upright bass player until you have $1000 worth of strings in a drawer!

But I totally agree with Martinc that the sound is, first and foremost, how you play and what sound you hear in your head.

[Aleph5]

Originally Posted by martinc

Spiro's (usually Weichs) with gut G and D have been used by many bass players over the years as the standard gut/steel combination. A new Weich usually take around 3 weeks to get rid of the "zing" and then settles into a very solid sounding string with a good focussed note that matches well with the gut.
And the list of Spiro bluegrass users is as long as your arm.
...

Where I think I screwed up is that I usually consider the G & D as the strings that most define a set's overall tone. Sure, sometimes the qualities of the top two are different than the bottom two and mixing/matching tops and bottoms are common, as is describing just the tone of one pair or the other. What I mostly forgot is that bluegrassers rarely use the top two strings, relatively speaking, anyway. So describing the tone of the G & D above about the pitch of, say, open G, is probably not really relevant here. But it's up there where I really hear attack, decay, and overtone differences between strings (and where the Spiros just don't sound bluegrassy to me, JIMHO). And if you had to describe overall sound qualities of Spiros, I still think sustain and a certain upper end brightness would be fair descriptions.

I'm aware there are tons of bluegrassers who use Spiros, and besides sticking mostly to the low C & G "butter notes," their Kays don't have much in the way of highs anyway. They may use Spiros for the same reason they use Kays, which may have very little to do with experimentation or pickiness and more to do with tradition, popularity, maintenance, etc.

It may be an oxymoron to say that one of the most popular bluegrass strings aren't the most appropriate ones for the music style, and I agree that a Spiro E and A work fine for 'grass, especially on most Kays and the like, but I still say gut strings more define the authentic "thumpy" tone of the genre and for a cross section (or average) of basses that usually have more overtones than Kays, Spiros wouldn't be on my list of great bluegrass strings. For that matter, LaBella 7710 black nylons I'm sure are pretty unpopular in the 'grass world, but I still think they work well.

Try Spiros, sure. They're fine for what they do (durability, sustain, staying in tune, and making the Jaco "mwah"). But I stick with my previous opinion with the caveat above about the A & E not having quite the same limitations.

[boombloom]

Years ago Tom Gray (Grey?) from the Seldom Seen and Country Gentlemen recommended that I try Golden Spirals on G and D and Spirocores on A and E. I've never looked back. I have grown to love the sound and the feel. I guess my playing has grown up around the set. My original aim was to find strings that would allow me to jam all night at festivals without too much finger damage. I certainly found what I was looking for. People who try my bass comment on the huge difference in tension between the steels and the guts, and the fact that the Spirals are as thick as the Spirocores, if not thicker. It's been years since I noticed. It's getting harder to find Golden Spirals as the years go by, but so far, so good.

[martinc]

Aleph said: " I'm aware there are tons of bluegrassers who use Spiros, and besides sticking mostly to the low C & G "butter notes," their Kays don't have much in the way of highs anyway. They may use Spiros for the same reason they use Kays, which may have very little to do with experimentation or pickiness and more to do with tradition, popularity, maintenance, etc. "

Aleph:
I almost got my head shot off a while ago on a bluegrass forum when I suggested it was time for many bluegrass bass players to improve their sound, given the great sounding mandolins, guitars etc that have always been used. I challenged the notion that the old, dead, thumpy Kay has defined the bluegrass bass sound on many traditional bluegrass recordings. For example the great Bob Moore told me he overdubbed the bass on many Bill Monroe and Flatt and Scruggs recordings using his wonderful sounding old Italian carved bass and all gut strings.
Today, Mark Fain and Dennis Crouch are two examples of players who have a similar, full, "un-Kay" sound. Two players using different strings and different basses but they both get a beautiful deep, yet musical, clear tone. Thats also the sound I have in my head and on my 1936 King the Weich/gut combo comes close. But the Weichs don't sound anything like the way you describe them.
Thats why I think if we can get the best sound out of our instrument with whatever strings it needs to do that, we serve the music better.

[Bobby King]

Today, Mark Fain and Dennis Crouch are two examples of players who have a similar, full, "un-Kay" sound. Two players using different strings and different basses but they both get a beautiful deep, yet musical, clear tone.

Dennis won't come near steel strings , and he keeps his action real high! When you have a setup like that you tend to play in the lower positions and only go up on the G&D. Dennis goes through a lot of basses and always seems to have several at any given time. My old King is one he found and got back into shape.

I haven't seen Mark in a while but the last time I saw him he had Larson strings on the top. He probably also has a few different basses.

I love Dennis Crouch's playing and sound. Dennis really idolizes Bob Moore and goes for that classic gut sound. One thing you have to remember is that people like Bob Moore or Paul Chambers or any of the "gut heroes" is that they had those strings on good, carved instruments. Not many plywoods will come close to that sound and many are better off with steel or synthetic. Also the gut strings of old were of much better quality (excluding maybe the custom makers) than what's generally available today. The best gut strings I've had are ones I may never find again. I know Dennis hunts all over for strings.

Also, I have to say that some Kays sound very good; admittedly, many are dogs, but there are plenty of good ones. For instance, Dave Roe's blonde Swingmaster sounds awesome. It's really hard to generalize in the world of upright bass.

[Whit Townsend]

Steel strings can sound great for bluegrass. I'd probably be usings a set of Spirocore Weichs right now, in the place of these low budget Supernils, except for:

1. I dont play evey day and my fingers wont take the abuse.
2. On most live gigs I play thru a pickup straight to the pa. I get way too much sustain w/steel, so I have to work way too hard damping strings. I had the same problem in the studio playing into a sensitive mic.

If I was in a situation where I was playing every day, and needed max volume and punch, like in a total acoustic or one mic set up, then steels would work great on the bass I have now.