bluegrass sounds

[martinc]

Bobby King wrote:" I have to say that some Kays sound very good; admittedly, many are dogs, but there are plenty of good ones. For instance, Dave Roe's blonde Swingmaster sounds awesome. It's really hard to generalize in the world of upright bass."

Bobby:
I had a 1949 C-1 that sounded pretty good too. If Kay necks were not so thin, I would have kept it. None of my Kays ever came close to my King though no matter what I did to them. But I agree...there are the occasional Kays that sound pretty good.
I was really floating the idea that in my experience, there are a whole lot of Kays (and other basses) out there in the bluegrass world that could sound much better with a proper set up.
To me Mark Fain and Dennis Crouch are carrying on the Bob Moore firm, authoritative, musical sound. Gives me goose bumps to hear them .
Always enjoy your comments Bobby. It was good to see you play last year up in this neck of the woods. A real pro.

[wdfoto]

Thank you for all the replys about the best for the bluegrass sound. I am more confused now. The bass is a 52' Kay with a little history in the Memphis sound. Hope you can read the letter I got when I bought the bass in Dec. 05

[ZuluFunk]

I think....

Get some kevlar core nylons.
Make sure they are higher tension.

You pretty much can't go wrong with a $40ish set. If you think they suckle, just keep them as spares and try something else.


If I were playing more, and sticking strictly with bluegrass or traditional RaB, I'd invest in guts.

But, for general playing, I use Spirocore Weich.

[joe_sorren]

I have to say that this is a very interesting thread for me. 1st, I had no idea that," ...the great Bob Moore told me he overdubbed the bass on many Bill Monroe and Flatt and Scruggs recordings using his wonderful sounding old Italian carved bass and all gut strings."

This above quote is worth the price of admission alone. What an insight.

Just last night I was marvelling over Bob's playing on Flatt & Scruggs' classic," Roll In My Sweet Baby's Arms." It's not just what he plays (a model of economy and well placed runs withen the context of the tune), but also the way he plays them. Listen how, as the song progresses, he keeps bumping the front of the beat, playing the front end of the pulse, creating motion and urgency within the tune...sooo gooood.

Anyhow, I have been playing with gut G and D on the NSCleveland, and have recently switched over to an A gut for Bluegrass gigs as well. REALLY digging it for this type of music.

Thump.

[Bobby King]

Bob Moore was/is an amazing bassist. He's still around in Nashville doing some playing and producing. I understand he had some problems with his arms that prevented him from playing for a long time.

If you look at Bob's career, he's played on thousands of records -- Everything from Elvis and Patsy Cline to Frank Sinatra. He's an example of a player who's not flashy, but has incredibly solid time and phrasing, great intonation, beautiful full tone, and produces remarkably even volume on all notes in all registers. That's what it takes to be a studio pro and particularly so in his heyday when there weren't all the benefits of modern technology. I read in an interview that at one point he was doing so many sessions, he had five basses and kept them in the various different studios where he worked so they'd stay acclimated to the temperature and be in tune (damn gut strings! ) BTW, those old pros often said the RCA 44 ribbon mics were the mic of choice for bass back then.

Another great was Roy Huskey Jr. I think it was Roy's playing on the O'Kanes records that inspired me to learn upright and put that gut sound in my head. Sadly, Roy died several years ago at the young age of 40. Roy often played an old American Standard and he had a Czech flatback as well.

To me, Dennis Crouch is really the one carrying on the Bob Moore tradition these days.

Did any of you hear the Louvin Brothers tribute record that Carl Jackson produced? I thought Kevin Grant sounded fantastic on that.

Martinc, thanks! Were you at that festival where I was playing with Tanya Tucker? I'm still gigging with her off and on, but it's all electric bass these days -- there's never room on her bus or else we're flying

[martinc]

Originally Posted by joe_sorren

I have to say that this is a very interesting thread for me. 1st, I had no idea that," ...the great Bob Moore told me he overdubbed the bass on many Bill Monroe and Flatt and Scruggs recordings using his wonderful sounding old Italian carved bass and all gut strings."

This above quote is worth the price of admission alone. What an insight.

Thump.

Thump:

I can't give you a confirmed list but I know he overdubbed the original Foggy Mountain Breakdown. Bob also played some of the Flatt and Scruggs early morning radio shows. This info came directly from Bob during one of my 2 conversations with him.
I have a list of about 100 # 1 songs over the years and he played on all of them. Just listen to any Patsy Cline song and hear that wonderful sounding bass along with Bob's tremendous pulse and bass lines. His line defines Walking After Midnight. If you listen to the Osborne Brothers "Bluegrass Collection" double album you hear Bob lighting a fire under everyone with his powerful playing.
You can't go wrong listening and learning from Bob Moore's work.
Check out: www.nashvillesound.net

[martinc]

Bobby King wrote: "Bob Moore was/is an amazing bassist. If you look at Bob's career, he's played on thousands of records -- Everything from Elvis and Patsy Cline to Frank Sinatra. He's an example of a player who's not flashy, but has incredibly solid time and phrasing, great intonation, beautiful full tone, and produces remarkably even volume on all notes in all registers."

Bobby:

Amen brother. He has been my bass inspiration .


"BTW, those old pros often said the RCA 44 ribbon mics were the mic of choice for bass back then."

Bobby: I asked Bob once what mic he used on his bass in the studio to get that great sound. He sent me a picture of an early Roy Orbison session that shows him sitting there surrounded by sound baffles with an RCA 44 on a small stand about 18 inches in front of his bass. I framed and hung it on the wall in my music room.
I'd be happy to just know a tenth of what he knows about playing bass. He was also on all of the Elvis movie sound tracks, the Simon and Garfunkel song " Bridge over Troubled Waters" , Brook Benton's" Rainy Night in Georgia.....the list never seems to end.


"Martinc, thanks! Were you at that festival where I was playing with Tanya Tucker? I'm still gigging with her off and on, but it's all electric bass these days -- there's never room on her bus or else we're flying [/quote]

Bobby: Yup. That was me talking to you backstage .

[Bobby King]

He sent me a picture of an early Roy Orbison session that shows him sitting there surrounded by sound baffles with an RCA 44 on a small stand about 18 inches in front of his bass.

Those suckers are expensive and hard to find! I have an EV RE20 that sounds pretty good on gut upright. "Poor man's 44"

When doing sessions on upright these days, it's important that the engineer understand the sound you're going for. Steel and gut require a different approach. For gut, ribbon and dynamic mics seem to work best, aimed near the bridge, fairly close. (1-2') When you want a more singing, steel string sound, then different condensers can work, multiple mics, etc.
The worst is when you're going for that Bob Moore sound and the engineer goes " It sounds kind of dull" and starts adding all kinds of highs and mids to try and make it sound like steel.

One thing I've learned: It can work well to add a little DI signal from a pickup along with a mic, but be careful about phasing issues! The DI signal arrives a little sooner and the resulting out-of-phase combination can result in a big loss of low end. You can correct this by flipping the phase on one signal, or if you're using a Protools-type system and record the sources to different files, you can expand the files on the screen and nudge one file to line up the wave crests. Makes a big difference!

[Aleph5]

Originally Posted by Bobby King

...For instance, Dave Roe's blonde Swingmaster sounds awesome. ...

I heard Dave play with Shawn Camp a couple years back, but he was not playing a Swingmaster. It was something with fancy tuning keys, is all I remember. Just about the best slap player I've heard (as Napoleon Dynamite might put it).

I think someone at least alluded to it re setup, but specifically: Since 'grassers usually use a setup w/ higher string height, that would also tame the typical Spiro sound and allow more of a rightful thump.

So there is that.

[martinc]

Bobby King wrote:

"The worst is when you're going for that Bob Moore sound and the engineer goes " It sounds kind of dull" and starts adding all kinds of highs and mids to try and make it sound like steel."

The first time I heard Dennis Crouch on a recording was on Aubrey Haynie's " A Man Must Carry On". I thought "wow ...now thats how I like to hear a bass recorded!"
One of the other guys on the session I know asked Dennis for me about how it was recorded. Unfortunately I no longer have the reply but I think he went straight into the board using some kind of a box. I could be wrong though. Maybe you could check with Dennis and let us know. It might be more food for thought. I also believe he used an American-Standard with guts.
Good to hear some of your experiences Bobby.

[martinc]

Originally Posted by wdfoto

Thank you for all the replys about the best for the bluegrass sound. I am more confused now. The bass is a 52' Kay with a little history in the Memphis sound. Hope you can read the letter I got when I bought the bass in Dec. 05

wdfoto:

In a nutshell.....just start somewhere. Grab yourself a set of Obligato's and play 'em for a while. They will give you a hybrid sound between steel and gut..maybe more towards gut. Compare, listen and you will soon know if its the sound you want. You will at least have a reference point with the Obligato's.
Don't forget in 1952 gut strings were all there were so your Kay was designed for gut tension.
Spirocore Weichs and Corelli 380 TX both sounded OK on my 1949 Kay. So did the Obligato's. In each case though I replaced the G with a gut.
Good luck and apologies for hi-jacking the thread a bit.

[Aleph5]

Originally Posted by martinc

... Grab yourself a set of Obligato's and play 'em for a while. ...

I concur! I see there are also some Jazzers for sale here for $60. I've never used that type, but since they're a pizz string, they might be worth trying that cheap.

[Aleph5]

Originally Posted by Bobby King

Did any of you hear the Louvin Brothers tribute record that Carl Jackson produced? I thought Kevin Grant sounded fantastic on that.

That's one of my favorite disks of the last couple of years. Though to be honest, I haven't noticed the bass playing much per se. Not familiar with Kevin. Maybe "not noticing" is a good tribute! Anyway, killer album. I melt when I hear Rebecca Lynn Howard sing "If I Could Only Win Your Love"!

[Dan in NJ]

Digging the hell out of XM radio (just got it)--tons of wonderful sounding gut-strung bass work all over the "dial"--
that Dylan show is killer too, played "Satan is Real" the other day--

this is a great thread, thanks--I just love the big warm sound of the late great Roy Huskey Jr on the Emmylou live CD. Anybody know if that's an all-gut set?

[Bobby King]

this is a great thread, thanks--I just love the big warm sound of the late great Roy Huskey Jr on the Emmylou live CD. Anybody know if that's an all-gut set?

Roy generally used the usual plain gut G&D/ roundwound gut E&A sets. I believe he played his American Standard bass on that CD. Roy was fantastic and very much missed!

[oystein]

Originally Posted by Bobby King

I believe he played his American Standard bass on that CD. Roy was fantastic and very much missed!

I couldn't agree more. His tone, choice and length of notes, the way he "played the song" was just fantastic. Also my favourite slapper on upright. I also recommend "Will the circle be unbroken vol. II" video. It shows Roy at his very best. The late John Hartford who also was a good friend wrote a wonderful obituary for Roy in Bluegrass Unlimited. Check out John and Roy's performance of Gentle on my mind on Youtube.com. Double bass, banjo and voice. I always feel inspired after hearing or watching Roy Huskey jr.

thanks, Øystein