Bluegrass upright "training" similar to Jazz/Classical?

[powellmacaque]

Hey guys,

You're alla probably tired of this prefaces, but I am a BG guy. I'd say I'm pretty good at bass guitar and I've been trying to get into upright for about a year with little success.

I enrolled in a school that tried to "ween" me off of electric bass and into more DB playing.

I was given etudes, exercises, books, and studies to learn how to play. These practices didn't really grab my attention, I didn't really have a drive to practice (why sound like crap on upright when I can sound good on electric?) and I found myself hating this instrument.

I would like to have another go at upright, but I think I'd enjoy learning bluegrass a bit more because it's a bit more "humble" than jazz or classical offerings, at least in my experience.

I think my main dislike for upright was not learning anything enjoyable. One of the reasons I liked electric bass when I was first starting out is because I could use what I was learning and apply it almost instantly to the rock stuff I was listening to.

For a beginner learning bluegrass, would you recommend going the "30 etudes for string bass" route, or do you guys recommend jamming with a couple of people who could show me the ropes and teach me songs and technique?

[moles]

No matter what genre of music you aim to play, learning good technique is the way to get there, IMO.

The path to motivation is different for everyone, however. I remember my guitar teacher, when I was 14, telling me to never neglect playing what I wanted to play. (Maybe I'm paraphrasing slightly, but that was the attitude that I picked up from him.)

Maybe what you need to experience, is going through a traditional learning method, and then seeing first hand how it makes playing in a Bluegrass situation better.

It's also worth noting, and it has on these forums quite a bit already, that DB is an instrument with a steeper learning curve off the hop compared to a fretted, guitar based instrument. It's just the nature of the instrument, so a certain degree of patience is required, especially if you're already proficient at BG (which usually stands for Bass Guitar around here ) or another fretted instrument. It's hard work that's worth it.

[powellmacaque]

Originally Posted by moles

No matter what genre of music you aim to play, learning good technique is the way to get there, IMO.

The path to motivation is different for everyone, however. I remember my guitar teacher, when I was 14, telling me to never neglect playing what I wanted to play. (Maybe I'm paraphrasing slightly, but that was the attitude that I picked up from him.)

Maybe what you need to experience, is going through a traditional learning method, and then seeing first hand how it makes playing in a Bluegrass situation better.

It's also worth noting, and it has on these forums quite a bit already, that DB is an instrument with a steeper learning curve off the hop compared to a fretted, guitar based instrument. It's just the nature of the instrument, so a certain degree of patience is required, especially if you're already proficient at BG (which usually stands for Bass Guitar around here ) or another fretted instrument. It's hard work that's worth it.

Oh trust me, I know this thing is a bear.

I do want to learn proper technique, I'm not trying to side step that. I'd like to learn the proper positions for scales, finger patterns, bowing technique, etc, but I would like to learn practical techniques. I really have no time, desire, money, or energy to devote to becoming a virtuoso. I'd really just like to be a "good" upright bassist who can play with friends and maybe make some cash.

I'm just now getting a decent tone pizz playing I-V stuff. Bowing is killing me entirely, I can't really find a good tone and I really hate hearing myself playing so horribly.

I guess I just have to find some time to devout to practicing, maybe even a good teacher in my area.

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

Oh trust me, I know this thing is a bear.

I do want to learn proper technique, I'm not trying to side step that. I'd like to learn the proper positions for scales, finger patterns, bowing technique, etc, but I would like to learn practical techniques. I really have no time, desire, money, or energy to devote to becoming a virtuoso. I'd really just like to be a "good" upright bassist who can play with friends and maybe make some cash.

I'm just now getting a decent tone pizz playing I-V stuff. Bowing is killing me entirely, I can't really find a good tone and I really hate hearing myself playing so horribly.

I guess I just have to find some time to devout to practicing, maybe even a good teacher in my area.

In answer to your original question I'd say "both".

Get yourself a classical/jazz teacher who will help you with technique so that your intonation is good and you're not going to hurt yourself and then find yourself a jam so you can begin learning the genre.

In my experience, there are far too many guys who don't take bluegrass bass playing seriously and consequently they're never in tune and have nothing to offer on any song beyond basic '40's bluegrass. A total bummer.

[ninepoundjammer]

I've played lots of bluegrass on upright, but I started out spending a semester studying classical technique with a guy in the music school when I was in college. I can tell you that the classical experience makes me a much better player than most bluegrass players I come across. That said, many of those players do just fine, get gigs, and make money, just like you desire.

A good thing to look into would be bluegrass instructional camps. I don't know what's available in Florida, but there are lots of options out here on the west coast. That'll get you some practical instruction, get you playing, and probably be a lot of fun.

Also, try to find someone that teaches bass from a bluegrass rather than classical perspective, if that's what you're looking for. The right situation for you is out there, just might take some work to find it.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

...I do want to learn proper technique, I'm not trying to side step that.

You won't like what I am going to say.

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

I'd like to learn the proper positions for scales, finger patterns, bowing technique, etc, but I would like to learn practical techniques. I really have no time, desire, money, or energy to devote to becoming a virtuoso....

No danger of virtuosity here, with that attitude, you will never play very well, IMHO.

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

...Bowing is killing me entirely, I can't really find a good tone and I really hate hearing myself playing so horribly.

It takes YEARS of work—real, hard, work.

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

...I guess I just have to find some time to devout to practicing, maybe even a good teacher in my area.

Reading this makes it hard not to be sarcastic, but I will try. I am 60. I began double bass at age 17. I still take lessons. I practice every day. I gig, and yes, I do bluegrass, as well as Jazz, classical, folk, country, salsa—and the on electric a dozen more styles.

Go ahead, complain instead of practice and study. Those with teachers who practice a lot will be grateful for the gigs you will never take. Not being disrespectful, just honest.

[ninepoundjammer]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

Reading this makes it hard not to be sarcastic, but I will try.

I don't know if sarcastic is the word I would use.

I don't think the OP needs to devote a large portion of his life to learning the bass in order to achieve his goals and have fun. If that's enough for him then what's the problem?

Playing "very well" is entirely subjective.

[bass_snake]

Don't give up playing upright. Playing bluegrass in upright bass is alot of fun! That' s the kind of style I've been lately. I love it!

Goodluck!

Fred

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by powellmacaque

...I enrolled in a school that tried to "ween" me off of electric bass and into more DB playing.

I was given etudes, exercises, books, and studies to learn how to play...I didn't really have a drive to practice (why sound like crap on upright when I can sound good on electric?) and I found myself hating this instrument.

...I think my main dislike for upright was not learning anything enjoyable...

Ok. Take a few lessons with someone whose basic Blue Grass playing you like. That will take you a few weeks to master. Then what? Why do you suppose they tried to switch you to double bass?

The fact is that today's Blue Grass bassists are schooled cats, just like in Jazz. If you just want to plunk around a couple of days a month, God Speed.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by ninepoundjammer

I don't know if sarcastic is the word I would use.

I don't think the OP needs to devote a large portion of his life to learning the bass in order to achieve his goals and have fun. If that's enough for him then what's the problem?

Playing "very well" is entirely subjective.

What word would you use?

Your are right, the OP does not need to do anything we say. Whatever makes him happy is fine.

Playing Blue Grass, (or anything) "very well" is not in the least subjective, IMHO. If you feel that way—fine, you are entitled to your opinion.

[ninepoundjammer]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

What word would you use?

Your are right, the OP does not need to do anything we say. Whatever makes him happy is fine.

Playing Blue Grass, (or anything) "very well" is not in the least subjective, IMHO. If you feel that way—fine, you are entitled to your opinion.

I'm wrong. "Dr Jim" is the arbiter of playing well.

Are you telling me that I can't find several million people that think some hack of a punk musician isn't a guy that "plays very well"? You and I would both probably agree that he sucks, but that doesn't make our opinion the only valid opinion.

I'm not discouraging the OP from learning to play well, but the classical approach hasn't worked for him, so I'm encouraging him to try a different approach. Are pro bluegrass guys schooled cats? Some of them, but a lot of them aren't. Are most of the local players that just want to jam in their living rooms and play gigs at the local pizza parlor? Not a lot of schooled cats there, and they seem to be loving it despite the fact that they should not go anywhere near a bass with a bow.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by ninepoundjammer

I'm wrong. "Dr Jim" is the arbiter of playing well.

Are you telling me that I can't find several million people that think some hack of a punk musician isn't a guy that "plays very well"? You and I would both probably agree that he sucks, but that doesn't make our opinion the only valid opinion.

I'm not discouraging the OP from learning to play well, but the classical approach hasn't worked for him, so I'm encouraging him to try a different approach....

I am no arbiter, just a musician with experience.

IMHO, the OP can't tell if the classical approach (or any approach) will work for him because hasn't actually been willing to do the work. He wants technique and to (heaven forfend) "play well," but he won't pay the price. Fine. He can "have fun" playing any way he wishes. Yet I must wonder what he expects to hear when then complains because he is unhappy with his skill level? Puh-Leez!

Originally Posted by ninepoundjammer

Are pro bluegrass guys schooled cats? Some of them, but a lot of them aren't. Are most of the local players that just want to jam in their living rooms and play gigs at the local pizza parlor? Not a lot of schooled cats there, and they seem to be loving it despite the fact that they should not go anywhere near a bass with a bow.

In Lexington, Kentucky, I shared the stage at the Woodsongs oldtime radio hour with a lot of bluegrass pros, J.D. Crowe, Cherryholme, Chris Hillman, and many others.

I can assure you that most of the bluegrass bassists working with artists on that level have had a very significant exposure to the woodshed, be it with a bow (often enough) or not. That's what I am advocating. One need not practice or play to exist. It is a choice.

[ninepoundjammer]

Originally Posted by Jim Carr

I can assure you that most of the bluegrass bassists working with artists on that level have had a very significant exposure to the woodshed

I wouldn't necessarily equate time in the woodshed with schooling and or learning classical technique. I'm not going to argue that successful pro bass players haven't practiced, I'm just saying that many of them haven't buried their noses in Simandl etc for years. I did it just long enough to avoid horrid technique and find out that it's really hard to get really good. I'm glad I did it, but in the end there's a day job and families and other instruments I like playing, so I realized ripping arco stuff just wasn't going to be my bag. Most local players, of whom I know a bunch, haven't gone anywhere near that kind of stuff, and some of them are still pretty good players, for bluegrass at least.

I'll state for the record that you and I probably have more in common than not and would probably get along well in the real world. I just think you gave the OP an unnecessarily hard time, which I believe you alluded to yourself. Who knows, if he gets in the right situation and gets more excited, maybe he'll develop the motivation to get more serious. You could have stated your opinion re the importance of technique and training and practice while being positive and not getting down on his attitude.

[Jim Carr]

Originally Posted by ninepoundjammer

I wouldn't necessarily equate time in the woodshed with schooling and or learning classical technique. I'm not going to argue that successful pro bass players haven't practiced, I'm just saying that many of them haven't buried their noses in Simandl etc for years. I did it just long enough to avoid horrid technique and find out that it's really hard to get really good. I'm glad I did it, but in the end there's a day job and families and other instruments I like playing, so I realized ripping arco stuff just wasn't going to be my bag. Most local players, of whom I know a bunch, haven't gone anywhere near that kind of stuff, and some of them are still pretty good players, for bluegrass at least.

I'll state for the record that you and I probably have more in common than not and would probably get along well in the real world. I just think you gave the OP an unnecessarily hard time, which I believe you alluded to yourself. Who knows, if he gets in the right situation and gets more excited, maybe he'll develop the motivation to get more serious. You could have stated your opinion re the importance of technique and training and practice while being positive and not getting down on his attitude.

Always in hope of forbearance, I suffer fools gladly. The OP, by his own admission didn't practice because it wasn't enough fun. That isn't foolish, it is willful self-defeating arrogance, IMHO.

How you define schooling is your business. For me, I have to practice now.

[pskelly]

If you can already play some root-five, and can hear chord changes, maybe you could try some jam sessions to see if you like bluegrass? Or if you can't find a jam session nearby you can get a play-along CD. The instructional camp idea mentioned above is also a good idea. Or just playing along with mp3s or CDs and see if it's fun. Some bluegrass and/or country bass players you might like in no order: Dennis Crouch, Marshall Wilborn, Jason Moore, Jake Tullock, Bob Moore, Barry Bales, Missy Raines, Roy Huskey Jr., Junior Huskey (Roy's dad), Ernie Newton, Todd Phillips, and many more.

As you know bluegrass bass is deceptively simple; it's easy to learn to make the notes you need to play along, but it's a real art to be able to play the notes in time, with a good 'pull', and a good tone and even volume across the strings. It's a lifetime pursuit if you want it to be.

I second the idea of getting a teacher, especially one who can teach you the correct 'classical' left hand position but who does not look down on the less-than-perfect left hand position(s) that are useful when you are playing straight root-five stuff for extended periods.

I might leave the bow until later, but I would definitely learn it (again from a good teacher) because it's fun and it's good for your intonation and left-hand stamina.

Two more cents to throw in. Good luck!

Pete

[bass_snake]

Thanks Pete for naming those bass players. I'll check them out. I'm new in the bluegrass/ country bass myself. I enjoy it alot!!

[M Ramsey]

My opinion to the OP would be to try Todd Phillips DVD set or Marshall Wilborn's DVDs from Murphy Method.

These are geared toward bluegrass bass playing and range from complete beginner to advanced player levels.

THEN, if these tools seem to help you, maybe you can seek out a personal teacher to do one-on-one lessons.

Both of these DVD methods are taught by both Phillips and Wilborn, who have studied proper bass playing technique. I actually think Marshall studied at Julliard for a bit, in order to improve his excellent technique, decades ago.

[JayB]

Simandl book 1 and arco helped me a lot in the beginning. I wouldn't recommend skipping either. That being said, I learned to play folk music by playing lots of folk music!

The trick is to find a teacher who gets both approaches. I found a teacher who was familiar with both legit classical technique and the root-V style playing commonly used in roots music, which helped me develop a good physical approach for the sometimes taxing job of playing bluegrass/old timey bass.

[juuzek]

Maybe you could travel to this, or perhaps there is something similar in your area:

http://www.thebassstrummit.blogspot.com/

[Damon Rondeau]

Nobody has mentioned yet the idea of repertoire: knowing the tunes. Bluegrass is no different than any other music in that you're not really going to play worth a damn if you're just faking the tune. Non-bluegrass people say "oh, it's simple, it's just I-V." But if you aren't hearing the tune and playing with authority it doesn't matter how much technical stuff you know and can do. You'll suck, more or less.

If you don't like the idea of studying with a classical or jazz dude, then at least get some functional lessons: how to hold the instrument, how to play some basic scales in tune, how to get a good sound, etc. Then play as much bluegrass as you can, either with real folks or with records.

Finally, don't forget bluegrass bass is as much (or more) about rhythmic feel as it is about note choice. That "simple" root-five line has got to feel just right -- not sluggish, not lazy, not rushing; you want to be on top of the beat and driving things along -- or the tune and the group haven't got a hope of getting airborne...