Has this ever happened to you?

Bass Doc · #1 06-30-2011, 05:36 AM

I am quite lucky to have found a group of people that I can do Bluegrass jams with on a regular basis.

We have a VERY strong mandolin player. Superb timing and excellent solos.

So I noticed that it happens from time to time that when I come out of a tricky bass chord part , I find that my timing has somehow gotten off so that instead of being on the 1 and 3 beats, I am on the 2, and 4 beats and doubling the "chucking" of the mandolin. When this happens, I have found the rhythm so strong, it is almost impossible for me to break back to the 1 and 3 without being REALLY noticable and ruining the song. As a beginner, I am quickly learning that the timing "belongs" to the bass, so when this kind of error occurs, it really falls in MY lap.

I would like to start a thead and ask you more advanced and longtime players:

- How often this kind of thing happens to you (does it still happen even now?)

-Are there any special situations/setups that I need to watch that predispose for this kind of problem?

-Are there any creative tricks to "switch it back" to the 1 and 3 beat that I can use. Right noew it feels like the gravity of the mandolin is holding me on the 2 and 4 once I get there...
Do I keep playing? Drop dead out for a measure? Some combination of double notes? Triple notes? Ask Scotty to beam me up.....?

-One Idea I had was to try to practice with the metronome and see if I could "force it back" anyone had any experience doing this?

It does not happen often but I can't predict it and it is really frustrating.

This newbie appreciates all replies. I'll try to put on my thick skin.......

johnz · #2 06-30-2011, 01:59 PM

It happens to most of us as we're starting out, and less so as time goes on.

From my experience, sometimes you've just got to count. Ultimately, you want to be able to just "feel" the pulse; but, that doesn't happen magically: We've got to do some shedding.

It looks to me, your protestations aside, that you've already got a good idea of when this happens: When you "come out of a tricky bass chord part". It seems that keeping that in mind might give you a leg up on fixing the problem. If a "tricky" part is coming up, start counting.

You can't go wrong with the metronome. I have no experience using one to get back on beat. Having said that, it will help you lock up your time-sense; and, working with it on 2 and 4 will help you get locked up and more comfortable with your mandolin player.

Leifericson923 · #3 06-30-2011, 02:10 PM

Have you talked with your drummer about it? maybe one day you and him should just jam since it's both of your jobs to hold to pulse, maybe you'll time your bass parts to his drum beats as time goes on.

**Damon Rondeau** · #4 06-30-2011, 02:36 PM

It's called "turning the beat around" and it's something that happens in the earlier years of playing. The faster the tempo, the easier it is to do.

I don't think there are any magical-type fixes. As you get more and more experienced, you start to hear and feel rhythm in terms of longer units. You're not feeling in terms of individual beats, you're feeling in terms of bars and groups of bars -- the groups you feel are usually 4, 8, 12 or 16 bars, the basic structural building blocks of the American popular tune. This comes with experience.

You could definitely work with a metronome to help build some mastery over dealing with rhythm in real-time. I don't have any specific things to say about that, but the 'nome is your little rhythm slave and master and you can develop a lot of skills working with it.

In terms of getting back in sync once you realize you've drifted over to the other lane, have you ever done any marching? If you get out of step with the group, you have to do a little stutter-step, a kind of skip, to get back in sync. Same idea for getting back in sync when you're in a tune -- don't panic, stop playing and jump back in on the right spot. Once you've internalized that skill and you're really feeling rhythm in bigger units, you'll be able to do it within the space of a beat or two. Folks might not even notice.

Afterthought: I should say, too, that in 'grass the bass player has really got to rule beats 1 & 3. The mandolin player (or someone else when the mandolin player is soloing) is chunking on 2 & 4. You really don't want to be losing that strong foundation of 1 & 3, especially the 1 -- it's not OK to drift over to the backbeat 2 & 4's. So this is a skill you gotta work on! Make that 'nome pay for itself, it's cheaper than a mandolin player.

bassist1962 · #5 06-30-2011, 04:01 PM

On occassion what I do when this happens is quarter note four-to-the-bar, until I can gett the feel of one back. This way the bottom doesn't actually drop out, and it makes it easier for me to get back to where I need to be.

packhowitzer · #6 06-30-2011, 04:11 PM

At rehersal, have you tried running through the parts in question without the mandolin playing? Maybe see if you can get through the 'tricky parts' unscathed and then build on that. If you know how it's supposed to go when his playing isn't present, you can find something to lock onto so that when he is present you are able to tune him out enough so as to not get lost in his playing. I used to play a song that had a horn section that was throwing me off very my like what you describe. At practice, I had the horns (and even the guitar) take five while I ran through the song with just vocals, bass, drums, keys. This allowed me to find a fundamental part of the song that I wasn't hearing before and I nailed the song. Then we added back the other instruments, but now I was armed with concentration to not get distracted by their tootling and strumming. Maybe it can work for you too?

salcott · #7 06-30-2011, 07:35 PM

Practice with a metronome on 2&4-instead of "click 2 click 4", make it "1 click 3 click".

Jake deVilliers · #8 06-30-2011, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass Doc

I am quite lucky to have found a group of people that I can do Bluegrass jams with on a regular basis.

We have a VERY strong mandolin player. Superb timing and excellent solos.

So I noticed that it happens from time to time that when I come out of a tricky bass chord part , I find that my timing has somehow gotten off so that instead of being on the 1 and 3 beats, I am on the 2, and 4 beats and doubling the "chucking" of the mandolin. When this happens, I have found the rhythm so strong, it is almost impossible for me to break back to the 1 and 3 without being REALLY noticable and ruining the song. As a beginner, I am quickly learning that the timing "belongs" to the bass, so when this kind of error occurs, it really falls in MY lap.

I would like to start a thead and ask you more advanced and longtime players:

- How often this kind of thing happens to you (does it still happen even now?)

-Are there any special situations/setups that I need to watch that predispose for this kind of problem?

-Are there any creative tricks to "switch it back" to the 1 and 3 beat that I can use. Right noew it feels like the gravity of the mandolin is holding me on the 2 and 4 once I get there...
Do I keep playing? Drop dead out for a measure? Some combination of double notes? Triple notes? Ask Scotty to beam me up.....?

-One Idea I had was to try to practice with the metronome and see if I could "force it back" anyone had any experience doing this?

It does not happen often but I can't predict it and it is really frustrating.

This newbie appreciates all replies. I'll try to put on my thick skin.......

Maybe when you get off on the back beat you could play all four until you can land on the 1 again. 2-4-1-2-3-4-1-3-1-3

anonymous122511 · #9 06-30-2011, 10:35 PM

Two things I'd suggest. The first is to use a metronome to practice dropping and adding beats. Not so much that it will teach you to be able to drop or add beats to correct when you screw up but rather it's a great exercise to help you feel where the beat is and not screw up in the first place. It does have a real practical use on gigs though. When a singer or soloist turns the time around they often don't realize they've done it and for the sake of smoothness it's necessary for the rhythm section to follow them. You may not wanna play with people who force you to do this but they're gonna love you.

Second is know the melody inside out for EVERY tune you play. This is standard advise for a jazz musician but it holds true for all song form music. When you know where you are in the melody you're never lost.

Jake deVilliers · #10 07-01-2011, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jeff arddun

When you know where you are in the melody you're never lost.

This is real wisdom!

farmerdude · #11 07-01-2011, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass Doc

We have a VERY strong mandolin player. Superb timing and excellent solos.

So I noticed that it happens from time to time that when I come out of a tricky bass chord part , I find that my timing has somehow gotten off so that instead of being on the 1 and 3 beats, I am on the 2, and 4 beats and doubling the "chucking" of the mandolin. When this happens, I have found the rhythm so strong, it is almost impossible for me to break back to the 1 and 3 without being REALLY noticable and ruining the song. ...

I'm sorry but i laughed out loud when I read this.....its funny cuz' we have probably all been there once

Bass Doc · #12 07-03-2011, 02:01 PM

Hey Guys,

I worked on this problem for about two hours, and devised a simple solution for this newbie bass problem.

So here's a restatement of the problem and a solution (with 3 measure examples):
----------------------------------------------------------
Here's what I SHOULD be doing all along (on beats 1 and 3):

Root-rest-Fifth-rest |Root-rest-Fifth-rest |Root-rest-Fifth-rest

-----------------------------------------------------------

Here's where I ended up doing by mistake (on beats 2 and 4):

rest-Root-rest-Fifth| rest-Root-rest-Fifth |rest-Root-rest-Fifth

------------------------------------------------------------

The solution is to play 3 quarter note beats of root and then one beat of Fifth. It will automatically put you back on 1 and 3 for the next measure. So here it is with a screwed up first measure and the solution in the second measure:

rest-Root-rest-Fifth|Root-Root-Root-Fifth|Root-rest-Fifth-rest

So I practiced that phrase: "root-root-root-fifth" as quarter notes, over and over. Its very easy to play in a panic situation, and guarantees that you end up back on the 1 and 3 beats. I recorded it in a song, and it does not stand out. It sounds like an "intentional riff" that just has the benefit of turning the beat around.

I can now "Turn the beat around" at anytime I please just by inserting that phrase.

Thought other newbies might find this helpful.

Feral Feline · #13 07-04-2011, 02:15 PM

Just recently I was asked to join a bluegrass band. Hopefully this thread's tips will act as an ounce of prevention and save me from a pounding cure.

wallawallabob · #14 07-07-2011, 09:04 AM

As a mediocre bassist who primarily plays Praise at church and bluegrass (what is a drummer?), I get into this situation once in a while. In fact, not only did I play 2 and 4, our guitar player didn't know the song either, so he followed me. As it turns out, you can completely befuddle the rest of the band when this happens.

I go into a 4 beat until the remedy is felt......

Marial · #15 07-07-2011, 09:11 AM

Timely thread, thanks. I've started to play with some old-time folks, not bluegrass, but the same rhythms apply in terms of 1-3 instead of being on the back beat. It's a whole new thing for me, so much appreciated.

hdiddy · #16 07-08-2011, 11:30 AM

I don't play bluegrass but I just stole a great exercise from an jazz guitarist. Try not only practicing with metronome clicks on 2 and 4.... try it on just 4. If you gravitate to hearing that 4th beat click as the downbeat - you don't have your time solid. It took me several attempts to practice with a single click per measure on something other than the downbeat but once you nail it, it's hard to screw it up.

It also helps that when you hit that 4th beat, shout "four" - it'll help keep you from confusing with one.