I need Bluegrass Bass tutoring, and FAST!

[hopturn]

I've played professionally and semi-professionally in jazz, funk, and rock settings for years. Got an EUB early last year, and have been getting lots of work from it. Yesterday, I auditioned for a part playing bluegrass (never played bluegrass before) with some guys who new me through some friends of mine. Long story short, these guys are SMOKIN'. I mean they are the right stuff. Apparently, I made the audition with the guitarist, but now the whole band wants me to audition a week from today. They know my history as a jazz guy, but I think that they are also expecting me to be able to jump in with both feet. I want to make the best impression possible.

Terms like "fiddle tunes" mean nothing to me. What are some of the prominent chord progressions? Are there any form requirements? What are some standards? I've listened to lots of Bluegrass and grew up listening to it at family reunions. Please give me some help...this gig pays between $250 and $500 per man PER GIG. I need this money, and I have to admit that I really like their music. Very talented and very professional.

[Jack Clark]

I only play in an amateur bluegrass group, so take that into consideration here:

Is-IVs-Vs, playing mostly I-V within each chord. Occasionally, a basic approach note or two, but use run-ups very sparingly. You do anything jazzy sounding they'll sink you. The keys are mostly on the opposite side of the Circle from jazz, i.e., G-D-A, and occasionally C and E. Oh, and look out for that extra fifth measure that some tunes seem to want to throw into what would normally be a four-bar line. We don't do fiddle tunes (no fiddler), so I can't comment there.

There's an old saying, I dunno who said it first: "If you've heard one bluegrass tune, you've heard them both."

You're lucky to have found a group that appears to be playing great and doing so well financially. Best of Good Luck to you! Let us know what happens.

[moles]

Man, if they're throwing fiddle tunes into the mix, that's a whole 'nother ballgame. Some people find it easy to find the "crookedness" in the tune - most of the time I don't right away. I get by with repeated listening, of different recordings (if I haven't sat with the fiddler yet - recordings of the band I'll be playing with if I have). There are different styles/approaches to the same tunes - so it'd be helpful to know ahead of time what their take on it might be. Like they might play everything just a bit straighter. Or not.

[DiabolusInMusic]

Root - Fifth. Go.

[Kirkowitz]

Hi, One thing to consider is that "bluegrass" covers a whole lot of terrritory these days. Some folks stick to the more traditional Bill Monroe/Stanley Brothers/Jimmy Martin/Reno &Smiley, Flatt and Scruggs style, while others explore the outer reaches of "jamgrass" or progressive stuff like the New Grass Revival.
Your options for what to play to stay in context coulld change pretty drastically depending upon exactly where in the broad spectrum this band might fall. It would help to have a set list from the band to explore before the audition.
I would suggest listening to the Del McCoury band as a starter. They are deeply rooted in trad. Bluegrass, but they aren't afraid to mix it up and take on modern songs in their own way. Good luck!

[Kirkowitz]

Originally Posted by moles

Man, if they're throwing fiddle tunes into the mix, that's a whole 'nother ballgame. Some people find it easy to find the "crookedness" in the tune - most of the time I don't right away. I get by with repeated listening, of different recordings (if I haven't sat with the fiddler yet - recordings of the band I'll be playing with if I have). There are different styles/approaches to the same tunes - so it'd be helpful to know ahead of time what their take on it might be. Like they might play everything just a bit straighter. Or not.

+1 I was going to mention this as well. Some fiddle tunes are tough. Meter changes, skipped beats.... but maybe that's just the folks I play with...

[Jason Sypher]

Go to Spotify, punch in Flatt and Scruggs in the search window and play along until you've got it. Stay simple. Play all the roots. Push the tune along, do not lay behind the beat. Make sure your bass is pushing some air, raise the string height a little if need be to give your notes more push.

[Kirkowitz]

Fiddle tunes to check out.
Soldiers Joy
St. Annes Reel
Arkansas Traveler
Redwing
Cripple Creek
Whiskey before Breakfast
Golden slippers
Turkey in the Straw
Bill Cheatum
Blackberry Blossum
Angeline the Baker
Sally Goodin
Eighth of January
Cotton Eyed Joe
Salt Creek
Bonapartes Retreat

[Sputter]

Originally Posted by hopturn

I've played professionally and semi-professionally in jazz, funk, and rock settings for years. Got an EUB early last year, and have been getting lots of work from it. Yesterday, I auditioned for a part playing bluegrass (never played bluegrass before) with some guys who new me through some friends of mine. Long story short, these guys are SMOKIN'. I mean they are the right stuff. Apparently, I made the audition with the guitarist, but now the whole band wants me to audition a week from today. They know my history as a jazz guy, but I think that they are also expecting me to be able to jump in with both feet. I want to make the best impression possible.

Terms like "fiddle tunes" mean nothing to me. What are some of the prominent chord progressions? Are there any form requirements? What are some standards? I've listened to lots of Bluegrass and grew up listening to it at family reunions. Please give me some help...this gig pays between $250 and $500 per man PER GIG. I need this money, and I have to admit that I really like their music. Very talented and very professional.

I'm in a very similar situation so I can empathize - except that I come from a rockabilly background, not jazz and certainly not classically trained. I was asked by a friend who is an exceptionally good banjo player if I could sit in for their bassist who has some serious health issues. I had the beginnings of a notebook of songs with chords - a cheat sheet of sorts - and one rehearsal to learn 30 songs for a gig. They had me do the following gig and asked me to join the band, which was flattering. My worry has been that I've had very little exposure to bluegrass and don't know the songs. (Although I have great respect for the musicianship of bluegrass players as well as the music.)

So take what I have to say as a total newbie to bluegrass, and defer to others who know a lot about it. (BTW, I'm also in SC).

There's also a forum called bassgrass that I just joined so I can begin to have a better feel for the various conventions of bluegrass. Might want to check that out. As you are probably aware, there are also variations and I'm not sure what style you are doing: newgrass, bluegrass, old timey? It's one thing to do pure bluegrass and then it's another to do music with bluegrass musicians who tend toward more progressive avenues.

I've found that there are also different styles of bass players. Some bluegrass bands just want a bass player to play 1-5 boom boom for the chord changes and stay on time. Other bands recognize that some of the greatest bassplayers also actually walk, and that it's either OK to walk or very desirable to walk. Two of the classic BG bands, Country Gentleman and early Seldom Scene, listen to them, the bassist is walking almost constantly. Country Gentleman - walking constantly during slow songs as well.

As an URB rockabilly bassplayer, I play slap, so I've been worried about wanting to respect the conventions of BG, but some highly respected bluegrass players told me not to worry about, to be myself, and to listen to Flatt & Scruggs player. He could and would slap. I also happen to love Joey Zinkan, a regular Grand Ol' Opry player and one of my all time favorite players - brilliant stuff.

So I've just modified a wee bit, keeping things to the country side (except for solo breaks) and I just try not to use some of the more obvious rockabilly walks, and stick to country and jazz-like simple walks. I mean, it has to be fun right? If your DNA is jazz, wouldn't you want to be yourself while still respecting the convention of the music? I've chosen not to lose my slap-style but to make it feel like it belongs and blends.

I'm sure there are some bluegrass folks who would rather I play boom-boom 1-5 and that's it. In fact I'm sure of it. But I just have to be able to play instinctively and so I'm trying to be balanced and respect the music and the wonderful timing of it, but I gotta be who I am. And what has happened is that I've had serious old school bluegrass players - highly respected ones too - tell me, "You just don't get to see that anymore, all of the old bluegrass slapbass players are gone now." These are people deep into the pure thing too, so I've let them guide me.

The timing of bluegrass fascinates me. I love music that makes my foot tap, but I also love how bluegrass often has the occasional little short measures, clipped turnarounds, or where a bar is held over two extra beats. The holds my interest and keeps me challenged and on my toes. So, I have great respect for the musicians and I see this as a huge learning experience, and as you say, it tends to pay pretty darn well. More than rockabilly in several cases.

I know I haven't helped you. But at least you know you are not alone. There is this - I'm trying to go back to listen and look at as many old youtubes as I can with examples of players who brought something a little different to the table. I'm not looking to change bluegrass, I'm just trying to research those players who stuck to their own unique DNA as well as kept the integrity of the format intact, in all it's surface simplicity but it's underlying intricacy. Lots to learn with just a few BG gigs under my belt. Working at it.

[hopturn]

First of all, thanks to all. I might not run, but I sure won't fall. Secondly, they do A LOT of "fiddle tunes." These guys are on fire, and I'm really wanting to be a part of it.

Kirkowitz: some great information, thanks. Looks like I have A LOT of homework to do. They told me that they do a lot of different events. Some are slamfests, and others are more traditional in nature. I've heard a lot of newgrass bands...they sounds more traditional than that to my ears, but the level of showmanship and technical prowess is extremely high with these guys. Maybe it is newgrass... They told me to "be the time-keeper" and when we do "doghouse tunes" that I should walk and solo. Any thoughts? Also, should I solo by interpreting the melody or just go my own way like I sometimes do in jazz projects?

Sputter: thanks, man. The guitarist said that that their last bassist was (besides being someq jerk who screwed up a profitable gig for himself) always fidgeting with his tone and messing up the banjo player. Thoughts about tone? I definitely want to project a vintage bluegrass tone. These guys are playing very nice instruments...I can tell that tone is a major consideration for them. What's working for you? What strings?

ALL: are so-called "fiddle tunes" the ones where I will really need to stay out of the way? It seems like the ones they have the most fun playing...my favorite ones so far. Can anyone else share any terminology that I would need to know in order to understand their needs better? THIS LAST QUESTION IS HUGE FOR ME.

[Sputter]

Forgot - regarding fiddle tunes. We have an incredible fiddler and we do some. That's where some cheat sheets are going to be handy. Be prepared to do some notations, because the structure of fiddle tunes tend to have several differing parts. Part A & B, with B maybe being an inversion of part A. That's where it literally just may take some note taking.

I feel like within every band there are two types of people, those who can explain the structure succinctly and make it crystal clear, so that it takes no time at all to get it straight, and then there a variation of person who either doesn't want to explain it thoroughly OR makes the explanation too complex. Bring the first guy a beer.

[Steve Killingsworth]

Originally Posted by hopturn

First of all, thanks to all. I might not run, but I sure won't fall. Secondly, they do A LOT of "fiddle tunes." These guys are on fire, and I'm really wanting to be a part of it.

Kirkowitz: some great information, thanks. Looks like I have A LOT of homework to do. They told me that they do a lot of different events. Some are slamfests, and others are more traditional in nature. I've heard a lot of newgrass bands...they sounds more traditional than that to my ears, but the level of showmanship and technical prowess is extremely high with these guys. Maybe it is newgrass... They told me to "be the time-keeper" and when we do "doghouse tunes" that I should walk and solo. Any thoughts? Also, should I solo by interpreting the melody or just go my own way like I sometimes do in jazz projects?

Sputter: thanks, man. The guitarist said that that their last bassist was (besides being someq jerk who screwed up a profitable gig for himself) always fidgeting with his tone and messing up the banjo player. Thoughts about tone? I definitely want to project a vintage bluegrass tone. These guys are playing very nice instruments...I can tell that tone is a major consideration for them. What's working for you? What strings?

ALL: are so-called "fiddle tunes" the ones where I will really need to stay out of the way? It seems like the ones they have the most fun playing...my favorite ones so far. Can anyone else share any terminology that I would need to know in order to understand their needs better? THIS LAST QUESTION IS HUGE FOR ME.

Don't stress over fiddle tunes. A few of them have an occasional twist but you'll catch on pretty quick.

As for tone, most traditional folks want a loud, boomy, quick-decaying note--sustain is not what they're after. One the other hand, if these guys are pretty hot, they may like a big fat Ray Brown swing. My favorite string Velvet Animas. I think they're a nice mixture of singing, swinging, booming, and growling.

As for staying out of the way, that's the norm--especially when someone else is soloing. I play quite a few runs between chords but don't walk much unless its a tune that really swings. Most grassers will agree what a busy bass line distracts from the music but an occasional tasteful run is like icing on the cake. When I first started playing someone told me the bass player needs to leave the ego in the car and there is a lot of truth to that.

As to your solo question, I think it works better to stick fairly close to the melody. I'm not saying you limit yourself to a note for note melody but keep it close enough that your bandmates and the audience know where they are in the song. Most bluegrass solos are fairly brief (usually one chorus) rather than the longer explorations of jazz. If you get too far out and can't find your way back quick enough it might leave the next guy hanging.

[Jack Clark]

Originally Posted by Sputter

. . . I feel like within every band there are two types of people, those who can explain the structure succinctly and make it crystal clear, so that it takes no time at all to get it straight, and then there a variation of person who either doesn't want to explain it thoroughly OR makes the explanation too complex. Bring the first guy a beer.

Maybe it's the second guy who needs the beer?

[clayfiske]

Kirkowitz gives a great song list to listen to.
Mel Bay puts out a great book that covers a lot of trad bg songs with a cd as well.
I played electric (didn't have an upright) a few years back in a bg band and that book helped me out quite a bit.
Don't remember the name but when I get home from work, I will look for it.

[Sputter]

Originally Posted by hopturn

Kirkowitz: some great information, thanks. Looks like I have A LOT of homework to do. They told me that they do a lot of different events. Some are slamfests, and others are more traditional in nature. I've heard a lot of newgrass bands...they sounds more traditional than that to my ears, but the level of showmanship and technical prowess is extremely high with these guys. Maybe it is newgrass... They told me to "be the time-keeper" and when we do "doghouse tunes" that I should walk and solo. Any thoughts? Also, should I solo by interpreting the melody or just go my own way like I sometimes do in jazz projects?

Sputter: thanks, man. The guitarist said that that their last bassist was (besides being someq jerk who screwed up a profitable gig for himself) always fidgeting with his tone and messing up the banjo player. Thoughts about tone? I definitely want to project a vintage bluegrass tone. These guys are playing very nice instruments...I can tell that tone is a major consideration for them. What's working for you? What strings?

ALL: are so-called "fiddle tunes" the ones where I will really need to stay out of the way? It seems like the ones they have the most fun playing...my favorite ones so far. Can anyone else share any terminology that I would need to know in order to understand their needs better? THIS LAST QUESTION IS HUGE FOR ME.

Tone - I use old school Goetz guts. That helps me keep the doghouse sound of the bass, and the slap is not metallic at all - warm. I feel that BG tends to favor a warm round tone. I tend to work with short sustain, dampening notes with my fingering hand before their full sustain. Be sure to dampen open string notes.

Time - To me, keeping on top of the time and not letting anyone else steal away with the time is considered my job. You rule the time once the banjo or whomever kicks it off - you hold it with an iron fist. If you have a mandolin player they will often do chops when they aren't doing the solo breaks. They'll be on the upbeat with you on the downbeat. Sounds so cool to be locked in that way. Because I slap, the mando usually syncs with my slap. Syncopation is less likely to be enjoyed by the rest of the band especially the banjo player (they want all that to themselves). So when I syncopate, I do it when the banjo player isn't and I do it somewhat sparingly.

Banjo players - When they run, try to let that be the one time you maybe do not walk or run with them. Try to counterpoint their runs, rather than do at the same time, same as syncopation. (Also - banjo players occasionally need the air let out of their tires, IMO. Occasionally I just have to do something a wee bit naughty - just because.)

Capo- BG players usually capo for A and several other keys. You're a jazz player and that will be easy stuff for you to transpose, but just so you it's said, when you see them playing a G with the capo - it's no G!

Solo- My personal recommendation, variation on the melody, but make it your own. Make it a bit fun and occasionally a bit funny. Years ago used to be that every BG band's bass player was one part comic. No need for that, but the bass player can keep their solo a fun twist on the melody and engaging for the listener.

Caveat again, I'm new to BG, so beware these are my impressions and are not schooled.

[Kirkowitz]

This sounds like a cool opportunity to learn some new music and make some cash. I would suggest just taking a listen to a bunch of the standard bluegrass stuff that we've all listed and check out how the bass works in those groups. Sounds like you heard some of it growing up so the feel is probably in you somewhere already.
I wouldn't advise changing your strings or setup drastically at this stage as that throws another variable into the mix that you might not need right now.
Someone pointed out to me a long time ago that the role of the upright and the mandolin are like the bass drum and snare in a drum kit for a bluegrass band- so keeping time will really be the joint duty of you and the mando player. Pay close attention to where the mando player sits in the beat to really get that bluegrass piston engine pumping! Good luck and have fun!

[Jason Sypher]

Not to state the obvious, but why not ask them for a list of tunes to look over? Then you can take the list and Spotify the names and check them out. In case you don't know Spotify, it's a free program that allows you to listen to music free over your computer.

[cnltb]

Originally Posted by hopturn

I've played professionally and semi-professionally in jazz, funk, and rock settings for years. Got an EUB early last year, and have been getting lots of work from it. Yesterday, I auditioned for a part playing bluegrass (never played bluegrass before) with some guys who new me through some friends of mine. Long story short, these guys are SMOKIN'. I mean they are the right stuff. Apparently, I made the audition with the guitarist, but now the whole band wants me to audition a week from today. They know my history as a jazz guy, but I think that they are also expecting me to be able to jump in with both feet. I want to make the best impression possible.

Terms like "fiddle tunes" mean nothing to me. What are some of the prominent chord progressions? Are there any form requirements? What are some standards? I've listened to lots of Bluegrass and grew up listening to it at family reunions. Please give me some help...this gig pays between $250 and $500 per man PER GIG. I need this money, and I have to admit that I really like their music. Very talented and very professional.

I-V-I-V-I-V-I-V-I-V-I-V-I-V...etc.

[hopturn]

thanks for all the info...got a lot of great responses and i would like even more if possible.
To Sypher: they said they were going to give me a list this Sunday...they wanted to tinker with it first. i also think they want to see how i'm going to do at gigs if they call out tunes i don't know or haven't charted. i would if i were them. they've been playing together for 5-6 years and typically just play whatever they feel like at the moment. i'm not worried so much about charting out the tunes. it's just that i know as a jazz bassist that there are some things that just come with the territory.

as a working bassist i always try to be as professional as i can, and come prepared. i don't want to ever be the "needy" guy in the band...as much as is possible. that's how you miss gigs and get skipped over. i'm sure there were several other guys invited to audition before me. i tentatively have the gig. in my view, i am the one responsible for fitting into their project. in this particulur genre i really don't know a lot about the terminology, history, most influential bassists, most covered songs, nothing...and i can usually fall back on a somewhat extensive repetoire of soul, r & b, jazz, rock, etc.

so, if you're reading this, and you've added to my education: thank you very much. as i said before, this gig has some great pay (and fun) potential. i've researched/am researching all the strings, bands, tunes, etc. that you told me about. i really like the Flatts & Scruggs. i've also raised the string heigth a bit. i've grown a little bored of what i've been doing anyway...ever notice how lots of bands in a city THINK they're being original, even when they are not? sometimes i think only us hired-gun types realize this.

SO THANKS AND PLEASE KEEP IT COMING...at least until you get bored.

[TDAN]

+1. Sounds like a great gig. I am sure that you will be able to adapt to your groups style as you learn the material. There are a lot of things you can do with the bass in a bluegrass setting but starting simple and instead focusing on tone and dynamics. You can't go wrong listening to Bill Monroe. Compare recordings with different lineups to see what different players have done with the tunes.

To learn more about fiddle tune try and find an old time jam or fiddle club and sit in. Very different in some ways but that is the tradition those tunes come from.

From you post it sounds like you are playing an EUB. If at all possible I would recommend getting your hands on a bass. I have heard great bluegrass played on a p bass and I know EUBs are more common now but there are some important aspects of tone dynamics that really work best on the traditional set up.

Good luck!