Old-time/string band bass

[McGryff]

I've decided to post this in the bluegrass forum since it's the closest thing available here to old-time.

Anyway, are there any old-time bass players here? I joined an old-time band back in May and it's been a great learning experience for me and I love the music. Simple (at least as far as my playing usually goes), but emotive. I've been listening to alot of Dirk Powell, Tim O'Brien, and Foghorn Stringband.

There's no bluegrass or old-time bass teachers in my area as far as I know, so there's not a real good way to learn more about the genre. Bluegrass is similar, but there seems to be a few differences.

I suppose that even though old-time doesn't traditionally utilize much slap, I should get that technique happening anyway.

Any other bassists jam any old-time out there that want to chime in?

[Jason Sypher]

Hey, I've been playing oldtime music for about 12 years now. I learned it the "right way" by playing non-stop at every festival I could find south of the Mason Dixon. It's not a complicated music but that's not to say it's not tricky getting just the right groove for all the different fiddling styles.
In some ways, it's simplicity is what makes it difficult. Very repetitive, almost mantra-like. Very strenuous, because you can play in "A" for hours on end. Very slippery, because if the groove ain't happening then the whole thing just doesn't work. I found that one way to get closer to the music is to take up another instrument like the banjo or the fiddle. That's when you really feel what you want the bass to be doing. When I'm fiddling and a bass player is not in the pocket, it actually hurts me deep in my cells. Another constraint of the music is "what do you play outside of 1-V? Lines are great if they keep the momentum going, but a poor note choice can stand out like no other music I've ever played. My advice is to get deep in the melodies and really learn the right chords. Dirk is great, I've played a bit with him. His take is fairly straight traditional with a healthy dose of hippy deep in the cracks. Of course someone has told you to listen to every Tommy Jarrell recording you can get your hands on but also get some Eck Robertson, Fiddlin' Arthur Smith, Melvin Wine, Fred Cockerham, Clark Kessinger, Roan Mountain Hilltoppers, Benton Flippen, Greg Hooven, Bruce Molsky, The Freighthoppers etc etc. Do not buy the fiddlers fakebook or any notated publication. Learn by ear and by playing. If you want to talk bass sometime just send me an email and if you are in Brooklyn sometime I'd be glad to give you a lesson on playing the music with authority. Good that you picked the Bluegrass forum for the oldtime topic. I suggest a healthy listen to Bluegrass, in particular the early stuff. There is so much overlap and a lot of good bass pickin' to check out. Oh, and on the slap comment. I slap whenever I want in oldtime and it works just fine. It's more a matter of how much and how tasteful. Nobody likes to hear someone slapping all night long, it loses it's appeal and starts to actually fence-in the groove. Use slap sparingly to differentiate different parts of the tune or to create a little more lift etc.

[Nohandles]

I have been play old time for almost 30 years now. It is my roots. Used to play the banjo and mountain dulcimer but went to bass 5 years ago after a long dry spell.
The best part about old time is you tend to learn a song very well after playing it for 30 minutes.

[D McCartney]

You might try to find some old time fiddle clubs in your area.

[Steve Swan]

I take my cues from my favorite banjo players on the bass role(s) in oldtime music. For guitar and string bass I try to play a strong, obvious bass note with great big, round tone in the very center of the beat. I'm not thrashing around with accents or syncopation on either instrument. That means for me NEVER slapping even the tiniest bit. This is trance music and the various other percussion-y instruments do enough accents to make it "interesting". Bass lines just aren't an important part of this music. Being present in the moment on every beat and every note is what's most important.

[Jason Sypher]

Well, I guess I disagree only because I have been around players that slap with so much subtlety that it's actually very musical. Andy Deever, who played bass with Ralph Blizzard for years has this great little perididdle that she does to bring the tune around that makes the hair stand up on the back of your neck and your dance partner throw you for a loop. I don't think of it as trance music (but I know what you mean). To me it's dance music and whatever makes those dancers happy is fine by me. Richard Bowman (a fiddler who wins first fiddle in many southern festivals) has a little family group, The Slate Mountain Ramblers, and his wife Barbara slaps her bass almost the entire night. For me, it's a little much, but the truth of the matter is, they are one hot dance band and she drives the band like a devil. It has become preferred (in the homogenization of old time music for a mass audience) to smooth out all the edges of this creaky, cranky old music, but there are still as many ways to play it as there are players. If you go to a mountain dance in Southern Virginia you will hear all kinds of idiosyncratic bass playing. Some of it rocks while some of it just sounds wrong. But I'd never tell a bass player what to play and and not play when I'm the fiddler unless it was messing everyone up. I also take cues from the banjo at times but I tend to listen to all the players to see where the center of the groups beat is and then try to glue it all together so everyone feels comfortable to do their thing. And I guess I would say that I don't play in the center of the beat either, if anything I'm pushing that beat to the very front to get that driving forward roll. I think of my note as the tippy tip of the nose of the grill ornament on a big powerful car. This may be due to where I learned the music, in the North Carolina/Virginia Surry-Carroll County region. And I agree with the statement that "the basslines aren't very important in this music" if the basslines your talking about aren't very good ones.

[learning_towalk]

I played in an old time string band for a few years (trying to start it back up) and knew virtually nothing of the genre at the beginning. I started listening to the Old Crow Medicine Show and quickly fell in love with this style of music (my fiance actually took me to see OCMS for my birthday last night)...I reccomend picking up their cds...Eutaw and OCMS are two great ones to practice along with.

as far to playing this style goes....it's about having fun so be sure that you approach it from that manner. most of the time it will be 2/4 or a 3/4 waltz beat so just learn to sit in the pocket and drive it (remember there's no drummer so you are the "bass drum" keeping everyone on so you don't have to be the center of attention)...I agree whole heartedly with the comment below about learning to take cues from the banjo player (or fiddler) because chances are they are going to be leading you....but remember HAVE FUN

oh and if you want to hear my old time string band check our my myspace page www.myspace.com/tonyneely and under my friends list click on The Algood Potato Association

be blessed,
Tony

[ugufru]

I'd love to hear from old-time players on this list!

I recently bought my first upright bass and feel like i'm starting all over. I've been playing old-time on an acoustic bass guitar and agree though it's deceptively simple, it brings all the other instruments together. The fiddle swings and shuffles and loops around to somewhere out of meter and a good old-time player listens very carefully to what's going on with all of the other instruments to keep things together and bouncing along like it's no big deal.

I'm now paying more attention to the playing of other players including string setup, as well as left hand positions and right hand techniques. What kind of string setup is preferred? Where do you like to stand relative to the bass? Do you use a proper thumb placements? I was at Clifftop last year, but other than times like that I don't get to watch other players very often. Anyone care to chime in?

[Brother Than]

Can't talk for others, but in terms of playing old time I'd echo others' opinion that gettin' too fancy can really get in the way of the groove- there's a hypnotic feel in OT that brings me back every time.
As for set-up, I just switched to low tension gut strings from obligato and I'm lovin' it for OT- super percussive. I worry less about proper thumb position in this format because of how much time is spent on the I and the V.
But that's just me...

[superman]

Old time music originaly had little or no bass,,the best thing to do when playing Old time is play very simple,,not a lot of runs,,just real simple,One of the first old time bands at the Opry was the Possum Hunters,,their bass player was a man named Oscar Albright,,and he used a bow,,I have no idea how he sounded because you cannt hear him on any of the recordings,,the latter players with the old time bands all just played simple stuff up on top of the beat,the guitar's role is to run the runs,,not the bass.real Old Time music is based on fiddle tunes,, so you job is to back the fiddle,, not play lead. and BTW Old Crow med show is "not" real old time music,,
The freight Hoppers are more old time ,,but I've not heard much out of them in a long while.

[MT Spaces]

Originally Posted by ugufru

.... I recently bought my first upright bass and feel like i'm starting all over. I've been playing old-time on an acoustic bass guitar and agree though it's deceptively simple, it brings all the other instruments together. ..... a good old-time player listens very carefully to what's going on with all of the other instruments to keep things together and bouncing along like it's no big deal.

I'm now paying more attention to the playing of other players including string setup, as well as left hand positions and right hand techniques. What kind of string setup is preferred? Where do you like to stand relative to the bass? Do you use a proper thumb placements? ....

Have fun with your bass Ugu ! I really like what you said about "a good old-time player ...." That would apply to all kinds of music when people get together to make pleasant noises.

I think it is important to have an easy-to-play bass no matter what kind of music you decide to play. A good luthier can provide a good set-up if your bass doesn't already have the "playability" you want. I prefer softer, fatter, low tension strings for bluegrass and old-timey music. I think the "sound" is great for the type of music and I like the minimal-wear-and-tear on my old-guy fingers and wrists. I have used gamut guts, velvet garbos and animas, and innovation supersilvers and 140H honeys.

Likewise .... I think it is important to have good technique (posture, proper left and right hand techniques) no matter what kind of music you decide to play. Not that I am an expert .... Never-ever take a lesson from me on technique ... But I'm trying to improve. Try to find a local teacher and / or attend bass workshops at the bluegrass / old time festivals. Talk to the bass players you run into. Most of them seem happy to help ... At least they have been for me as long as I don't try to pin them down for 2 hours .

Originally Posted by Brother Than

.... gettin' too fancy can really get in the way of the groove- there's a hypnotic feel in OT that brings me back every time ....

I agree with you Brother . I try to keep it simple, solid, and straight-ahead with some octave changes for a bit of interest now and then. Although ..... Some of the tunes I have done with Folks around here aren't all-that-simple and can have some unusual chord changes that give a lonesome "modal" / minor sound and some tunes have some extra and/or dropped beats that can sneak-up on you (I guess that's called "crookedness" ). Like you, for me, the hypnotic groove is why I love playing bass in old-timey music when I get a chance to sit in with them and turn off the thinking-too-much part of my brain for a change.

Beyond the pleasure of entering a hypnotic trance, the other main reason I like old-timey is because they have good names for tunes .... Squirrel Heads And Gravy, Nail That Catfish To A Tree, Puff Adder Quickstep, Doggy On The Carpet, Old Mother Flannaghan, and Growling Old Man and Grumbling Old Woman ..... The list goes on forever (and it is sometimes hard to tell one tune from another ).

Originally Posted by superman

Old time music originaly had little or no bass,,the best thing to do when playing Old time is play very simple,,not a lot of runs,,just real simple,One of the first old time bands at the Opry was the Possum Hunters,,their bass player was a man named Oscar Albright,,and he used a bow,,I have no idea how he sounded because you cannt hear him on any of the recordings,,the latter players with the old time bands all just played simple stuff up on top of the beat,the guitar's role is to run the runs,,not the bass.real Old Time music is based on fiddle tunes,, so you job is to back the fiddle,, not play lead. and BTW Old Crow med show is "not" real old time music,,
The freight Hoppers are more old time ,,but I've not heard much out of them in a long while.

Thanks for the history lesson Kent . I think you ought to get busy and write "The Complete History of Upright Bassists at The Grand Ole Opry." I'm sure you have plenty of spare time on your hands . Be sure to include lots of old photos. Don't forget to include a section about yourself. I will be the first one to place an order.

I can't imagine Oscar bowing his bass with the Possum Hunters .... I can barely keep up on most of the fast old-timey fiddle tunes just plucking the strings and trying to stay "up on top of the beat." I can definitely tell when I'm dragging a couple degrees behind on the timing light. That can really change the feel of the old-time tunes in bad way.

When you said .... "Old time music originaly had little or no bass" that struck home for me. Over the past 4 years of trying to learn to play upright, I have gone to several camp-out music jams each summer.

I noticed that the old-timey folks usually didn't have a bass player. It didn't make any sense to me and I didn't understand why. Maybe it was a simple fact that no bass players wanted to play old-time with them. Or ... Maybe they ran-off other bass-players that were too "busy" in their playing style and didn't keep that solid, simple beat they wanted (actually I know that happened ... they told me later on). I began to test the waters ... I usually started out at the bluegrass circle but when another bass player showed up, I would go over to hang out with the old-timeys to listen and visit. Eventually they told me to get my bass .

Now they like having me around and I like being around solid rhythm guitar players, multiple fiddlers, clawhammer banjerists, and the odd autoharp or dulcimer every now and then.

Several months ago some of them asked me to play bass with them for a contra dance. Now that was FUN ... I guess there were about 40 dancers of all ages. Our Contraband was twin fiddles, Gibson flattop rhythm guitar, and me.

We did a number of medleys but my favorites were North Carolina Breakdown (G) - Bob’s Farewell (Am) - California Girl (A) ... and .... Sandy River Belle (G) - Julianne Johnson (D) - Puff Adder Quickstep (Dm) (with the fiddler-gal playing clawhammer instead of fiddle on this medley). There's nothing quite-like playing a medley on bass for 10 to 15 minutes straight to enter a trance and work up a sweat . I was glad that I had easy-to-play strings (gamut gut G and D, velvet animas A and E) and a good set-up on my Epiphone. It was a long-night .... Other basses and strings I have tried would have put me in the Old Folks Home for at least a week to recover.

I think the band liked having a bass since they kept telling me to turn up my Coda amp behind us plus the bass in the house. I was off to the left of the other musicians. I aimed my bass at them and my bass has a fair-amount of oompfff acoustically. No shortage of bass that night ..... The Caller told me after the dance that it was nice to have plenty of bass because the dancers can find the beat easily and they dance better.

[Jason Sypher]

Your main objective is going to be to outline the chords with solid root/five movement and get a deep, big as a house, unwavering groove. Now, that said, you can begin using different registers and passing notes to smooth out your line and enhance the harmony and melody. After that, when your groove is unshakably deep you can add subtle time variations. Occasionally you can pick up a timing cue from a song with a repeated rhythmic figure like Robert Sykes "Black Eyed Suzie" with it's syncopated third part. There are rhythmic variations to be gleaned from early blues (Muddy Water's I Can't Be Satisfied) and early jazz (Sam Brown on Jean Goldkette recordings) and even some Pops Foster, Milt Hinton and Wellman Braud. You have to be a good bassist to be able to add something and still swing the band and not upset the players who aren't used to such devices but if you pick your spot and play it spot on, in complete sympathy with the fiddler, you will have something very fine indeed. Most attempts at this kind of thing are muffed and therefore not appreciated but if you really take the time and work on perfecting your sound and feel, you will find more opportunities to add to the song.

[MT Spaces]

Jason .... Thanks for reappearing in this thread after almost 3 years . You have had excellent advise all-along and I have been trying to pay attention . There's more to old-time music than meets the ear. Simple can be difficult. (P.S. I still have the fatty gamut plain A gut I got from you but I have been giving it a rest for awhile .)

[Eric Hochberg]

Can you recommend any videos where you can really see the bassists and how they are playing? I've been working on the slap thing a bit...

[superman]

I'm i bit confused,,are we talking about ole time string band music,, or Jazz???? I dont remember anything about Muddy Waters, doing and fiddle playing,,lol

[Stev187]

How cool to see an old-time bass thread here! I played bass in an old-time string band for about 10 years. I agree with everything above, and I only have two words to add if you want to be a good bassist for old-time dances and jams, and those two words are: Riley Puckett. If you don't know them words, Google 'em and git goin' on it.

Tip: don't try to play those patterns while listening to the records, as the keys are all screwed up and he was playing guitar anyway. But a good collection of Skillet Lickers 78s with Riley on guitar can teach you everything you know about old-timey bass.

That's my opinion!