Opinion welcome(needed)I'm new

moparalltheway · #1 11-20-2007, 12:17 AM

After reading the newbie site I would still like to hear much input on selecting a bass for bluegrass. I have studied this for weeks and have come up with three. Engelhardt,Shen or Schartel. I had rather spend more up front and get a good bass that I am comfortable playing and sounds good. I will be taking lessons to get me started. Thanks for any input!

Cathead · #2 11-20-2007, 01:58 AM

I would try to advise you, but I know nothing about the Shen or Schartel. I have an Engelhardt ES9 and would buy another if something happened to mine.

Gufenov · #3 11-20-2007, 05:29 AM

Kays and Engles are very popular in the bluegrass world. I play an ES-1. Shens have an excellent reputation. I'm not familiar with Schartel. Uptons are getting some great reviews and are so popular they can't make them fast enough. Ideal music was offering some great deals on old-stock Eberles. New Standard are priced higher, but have an excellent reputation.

If you complete your profile, someone may be able to direct you to a great resource close to where you live. Also, if you're into Bluegrass, stop in at www.bluegrassbassplace.com and say howdy!

M Ramsey · #4 11-20-2007, 06:33 AM

I played one of the lower end Shen basses a couple of years back and was highly impressed. Now this was in a bass shop with a decent setup, but it had the strings it was shipped with and sounded very good. I was amazed with the amount of volume on the E & A strings.

I've owned a Kay a Tone King (Gretsch bass similar to Kay) and now have 2 American Standards. If I were buying a new plywood bass, I think the Shen would be the front runner for me.

Nohandles · #5 11-20-2007, 06:33 AM

If I was to buy another bass I would find an old Kay. I play an ES9 that is really opening up but it is 5 years old and has many hours on it.

Steve Killingsworth · #6 11-20-2007, 10:07 AM

I owned and ES-9 for several years. I have played several Shens and one Upton Hawkes. The E'hardt was the loudest and had the percussive thud that lots of bluegrass folk want. The Shen had the most defined musical tone. The Hawkes fell somewhere in the middle--a better tone but less volume than the E'hardt and lacking the clarity of the Shen

The KEY to any of them is a professional quality setup. The Upton (and possibly Shen depending on where you get it) will arrive with a good setup. You will need to have the Engelhardt set up. If you go with the E'hardt, I STRONGLY recommend you have it set up by a real bass luthier, not a shadetree guy or guitar/mandolin/fiddle mechanic. It will probably cost several hundred $ but is money well spent.

Your string selection will also have a lot to do with the tone and playablilty--especially if you don't have a lot of experience.

I loved my Swingmaster but found the larger necks of the Shens and Upton easier to navigate and more comfortable to play.

I really don't think you can go wrong with any of the three.

I see you are in Murfreesboro. Dustin Williams usually has several Shens available and does excellent setup work. I would certainly check out what he has.

Steve Swan · #7 11-20-2007, 01:15 PM

The quietest, least interesting bass in my shop right now is a 1965 Kay. I've only played one Engelhardt (from 1970) that I thought competed with the Kay basses. Every Shen that I've ever had in the shop completely blew the Engelhardt and Kay basses out of the water. Even the Eastman plywood bass kicks the poor old Kay's butt. I'd double the vote for you to go see Dustin Williams about his Shen basses.

Let us know how it turns out!

moparalltheway · #8 11-20-2007, 01:16 PM

Thanks Steve. I have talked to Dustin on the phone last week. He was very helpful and I will be going to his shop on Fri. I found him by searching the net. He will let you take a bass for a week at a time to see if you like it.Sounds good to me.He also offers 100% buy back anytime in the future. The Schartel is sold at Sam Ash music also in Nashville. It is there custom store line and is NOT MADE IN CHINA! Heard some good reviews on it. Thanks for you help.Dan

Mr. Chuffey · #9 12-04-2007, 12:21 PM

From what I gather from reading these threads, the Engelhardt sounds like a good bet. I've played guitar for a long time, but I'm new to bass, and have played electric for about a year. I'm itching to jam with some Bluegrass players, and I want to find a good instrument. I'd so much rather get something old and beat up, so I've been trying to find a Kay I can afford. But the ones I've heard so far just don't put out a lot of sound. And in a big jam, with banjos and dobros going, I'd hate to not be able to hear myself. My hearing is not that great to start out with. And playing something like a double bass, without those frets, would kind of scare me if I couldn't hear myself. The member who said that the Englehardt has the thump kind of caught my attention. Can anybody else confirm this? I wish I could find one around the Bay Area to check out. I don't really want to buy a new instrument, but that could be the direction I go. Their blonde version is sure pretty, in the pictures!

Gufenov · #10 12-04-2007, 01:18 PM

HALF (or more) of the basses you'll see at a bluegrass festival are Kays and Engelhardts. My ES1 definitely has the "thump," and I've received many favorable comments and quite a few offers to buy. That's especially impressive when you consider it's only 4 years old and doesn't have that mystique that the older Kays have.

Keep in mind that the instrument is only the beginning of the sound. Set up, including string choice, means everything - yet it means nothing if you don't play it properly.

I put very little stock in comments like, "brand X blew away every brand Y I've ever heard..." Keep an open mind and get your hands on some instruments and play them. This thread recommends some excellent brands - try several and choose the one that produces "that" sound for you.

One more thing. You can tell a lot more about how a bass sounds by standing back while someone else plays it. Hit a few jams. When you hear a bass you like, ask the player about it. You'll probably be invited to play it.

juuzek · #11 12-04-2007, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gufenov

One more thing. You can tell a lot more about how a bass sounds by standing back while someone else plays it. Hit a few jams. When you hear a bass you like, ask the player about it. You'll probably be invited to play it.

+1. Definately play and listen to as many as you can before yo buy. And I rarely meet players at pickin' parties that won't let you play a few tunes on their instrument.
You have to enjoy the sound and playability to want to keep picking the thing up and practicing.

MollyKay · #12 12-04-2007, 05:10 PM

Hello…being a vintage, American made, plywood bass lover…I would take the earlier advice to get your hands on and around as many basses as you can. Don’t discount a bass solely on its pedigree. You need to hear, play and really decide if you want new or vintage. I agree with the earlier comment that many bluegrass players go for the vintage instruments for the mojo and cool factor…however many of these old vintage basses are in desperate need of repairs and a good set up. My vintage basses only came to life after we spent many, many hours on restoration and set up. Use your ears first before you let your eyes and pocketbook rule your decision. If you can acquire a vintage bass and invest some money in it, you may have a friend for life. Good Luck on your search…and the search is a huge part of the fun!

Jason Sypher · #13 12-04-2007, 05:59 PM

Molly Kay, I like your posts.

She's right, get out there and try basses. I realize it's not festival season but that's a great place to hear and play basses. Jam sessions would be my next choice. Sometimes a bass that sounds great in the wood floor/high-ceiling shop doesn't sound so great in the bar. Try them all and look for something that is solid and feels good. Good luck.

superman · #14 12-04-2007, 09:45 PM

If you are in Murfreesboro,please IM me and I'll give you my phone # ,I'll be glad to help you find a good bass,,any of the ones u listed are ok basses but like Mollykay said there are a lot of good used basses out there and a bass that has been played more always sounds better than a new one,,You will not find a bluegrass bass at Dustin Williams shop,,he caters to the orchestra and jazz crowd,,he just recently insulted a close friend of mine by calling his 40s American Standard, a cheap hillbilly bass,,,that insults me as well, since ive played A/S basses for a long time.I have had him do a couple of things for me and he is priced quite high,,,In saying that,he will not have to worry about me sending him any more work again.
A good Kay or King might cost you a bit more ,but the value will only go up,, and even a used engelhart will sound so much better than a new one,,hope this helps,,Kent

Roger Harper · #15 12-05-2007, 08:40 AM

I work in the Nashville area also and have had great service from Dustin. He did a great setup on my Englehardt including planing the fingerboard and fitting a new bridge for a very reasonable price. He has been very generous with his time and knowledge. I have played several Shens at his shop as well as a number of other basses and all had great setups and good to great sound. I still deeply regret passing on a Juzek I played from his shop at SPBGMA last year. I would give him a try at least.

Roger

Steve Killingsworth · #16 12-05-2007, 03:46 PM

Kent,

That has not been my experience with Dustin. I have found him to be very reasonable repairing a crack in the pegbox of my Cleveland. Also, I have a friend with a bass in Dustin's show right now undergoing repair of a broken neck. I won't quote his price but again, I thought it was very reasonable.

And exactly what is a "bluegrass bass?" Certainly Dustin carries some higher end instruments but I have seen and played several basses there that would be well-suited to a bluegrass venue.

mstclairmiller · #17 02-18-2008, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gufenov

HALF (or more) of the basses you'll see at a bluegrass festival are Kays and Engelhardts. My ES1 definitely has the "thump," and I've received many favorable comments and quite a few offers to buy. That's especially impressive when you consider it's only 4 years old and doesn't have that mystique that the older Kays have.

Keep in mind that the instrument is only the beginning of the sound. Set up, including string choice, means everything - yet it means nothing if you don't play it properly.

I put very little stock in comments like, "brand X blew away every brand Y I've ever heard..." Keep an open mind and get your hands on some instruments and play them. This thread recommends some excellent brands - try several and choose the one that produces "that" sound for you.

One more thing. You can tell a lot more about how a bass sounds by standing back while someone else plays it. Hit a few jams. When you hear a bass you like, ask the player about it. You'll probably be invited to play it.

Good advice - let your ears do the talking. I always talk to other bass players at festivals, jams, gigs etc about their bass, their strings, their luthier etc. Everyone will have a different opinion. Listen to lots of basses, talk to lots of players, play their basses. If you can, listen to a few people playing one bass and hear the difference in tone each player gets.

Get the bass that feels right to you. Or just buy a bass and be prepared to sell it down the track when a nicer one comes along! With double bass, its a journey, not a destination!!

jimmyzero · #18 02-22-2008, 09:41 PM

I would recommend contacting Jerry Fretwell. I just got my first urb from him and he was a pleasure to do business with. His prices are good and include set up and a few upgrades. I bought an Engelhardt EC1 and had him switch out the factory strings with supernils. My out the door price after shipping from Virginia to Michigan was $1164. He does the set up and test plays every bass he sells and will not sell you a bass that he would not play himself. I think that is an outstanding policy.

martinc · #19 02-23-2008, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by moparalltheway

After reading the newbie site I would still like to hear much input on selecting a bass for bluegrass. I have studied this for weeks and have come up with three. Engelhardt,Shen or Schartel. I had rather spend more up front and get a good bass that I am comfortable playing and sounds good. I will be taking lessons to get me started. Thanks for any input!

moparalltheway:

Some very good suggestions have been made in response to your post.
Here are some of my thoughts......
Its difficult to assess what you need for a bass when you are a newbie. The problem with listening to other people's basses is that they may not be properly set up or the player does not bring out good tone. Find someone who knows to help you.
It takes time for a beginner to be able to get good tone out of any bass. Its a product of the strength from your hands, having the right strings for YOUR bass and having a good quality bridge and soundpost properly fitted properly. This may not seem to matter much right now but it will once you get up and running.
When you have an Englehardt and a Shen on your list you are talking about two different sized (thickness) necks. The Englehardt is a latter day Kay with the same thin neck designed back in the 1930's for students. Many bluegrassers like the thin neck...many don't and find the regular sized neck much more comfortable and easier to play. I started with a Kay and used it for about three years until I tried another bass with a regular neck. I never went back to the Kay.
A good point has been made about a "bluegrass" bass. Any good sounding bass will serve bluegrass well. There are lots of ideas about what a "good sounding" bass is but that is a topic for another thread!