Opinions needed for "Jam Etiquette" question

Bass Doc · #1 12-12-2011, 05:20 PM

Hi folks,

I was at a Bluegrass jam the other day and a situation came up that I would like some opinions on.

Usually, in my area, I have been the only Upright bass player at the jams I attend.

A few days ago I went to a jam that I had not been to before and found there was already a bass player there. The interesting thing is that even though this was a new location and host, about 3/4 of the people there were people I already knew and jammed with at multiple prior jams. Just the bass player was new to me. The bass player was not the host.

This bass player was really MUCH better than I am. He was really strong (a professional musician) and knew most of the songs by ear.

I have never been to a jam where there was more than one bass player. How have y'all handeled this situation?

I ended up sitting it out for most of the jam because he clearly sounded great, and the transition from him to me would have been embarrasing for me - I am afraid. This guy REALLY was solid. I'm still working on my chops.

He was gracious and invited me to play on his bass - but I didn't do it for 2 reasons:

1) Clearly everyone was getting down with his playing and I didn't want to spoil everyone else's fun

2) Didn't want to humiliate myself.

I was really itching to play and disappointed that I dragged my bass all the way out there and did not play, but did not know the correct Etiquette. I ended up setting up way across and away from him and tried to play softly for just the last part of the jam. Walked away dejected but not sure what I should have done.

So how have you seen it handled when more than one bass player of differing ability shows up to a jam? Is there room for more than one bass player without throwing everone else off?

OK, I'll try to put on my "thick skin" now to hear all replies...

Thanks,

Jeff

BluesWalker · #2 12-12-2011, 05:22 PM

Whoever was in charge of the jam session should have worked you in for a fair amount of playing time.

**jmattbassplaya** · #3 12-12-2011, 05:32 PM

It's intimidating to play with guys who are better than you, but that's just one of the things that comes with being a musician. Instead of being nervous you should be gracious to talk to someone who obviously knows a thing or two about your instrument. I would of talked to the guy and have him give me a listen and then offer feedback on my playing. I might of even asked him if he was available for instruction.

timonvh · #4 12-12-2011, 05:34 PM

Hey Jeff,
***k "Etiquette". I'll bet the other bass player does.
Approach him, tell him you like his playing & would benefit from listening to, talking to him about bass matters, and swapping turns (or maybe even 8s) in playing at the jam. I'm sure he wouldn't mind that.
Don't just cower in a corner. Come forward. He was once just like you.
(Forgive me for sounding old and pedantic)
Timon

edit: Jmatt is a lot faster than I am. Again, old age...(sighs and is off to bed, way past midnight in old Europe)

Foamy · #5 12-12-2011, 05:36 PM

Yep, ya gotta get in there and play.
In fairness, the host should've worked you in; however, if he saw you sulking, then he would be OK to just let you sulk, correct?
So, get in there and play.
Then, afterwards, go to the other guy and ask what he thought, and if he has any tips.
You didn't learn to walk by watching others and stayin' on your butt, right?
Go get 'em!
And remember...EVERYBODY sucks! (at some level)

Morkolo · #6 12-12-2011, 06:19 PM

If I was going to go around and be worried about playing behind every guy that was better than me on bass I would never pick it up. From the sound of it the other guy seems to be a team player though and believe it or not you may have been making him just as uncomfortable by not playing (with him thinking everyone might think he's trying to hog the spotlight). I know that's how I felt when I've went to a few jams and there were guys that without trying to sound too big in myself couldn't play as well as I can. It's fun to share, if he's played long enough than he knows he can learn from you just as much as you can learn from him.

lnichols · #7 12-12-2011, 06:50 PM

I've been in this situation before - on both ends of it. A good jam leader will work you in. If I'm the first bass player there, I'll suggest that the other bass player(s) and I trade off songs. I'll play one; they play one. I need to be a little more forceful about asking to join in if I'm not the first one there.

I was recently at a jam where there were already two bass players playing. They were both new to the bass, and both played at the same time. They weren't interested in sharing and wanted me to play along with them. The leader didn't say anything, so I left. I think two basses is one too many. Three basses is way, too many for me in a single jam circle.

L.

Bass Doc · #8 12-12-2011, 07:20 PM

I guess my biggest question is can two basses play at once at a jam? I.e. is it run to set up my bass and join a j that already has a bass player?

Jeff

Dr Piggery · #9 12-12-2011, 11:57 PM

In general one bass per jam works best. I have played along with two basses, but it was a large noisy jam with a fair number of "basic musicians".

In my experience there are two basic types of jams:
1) small group of high standard players - usually one of each instrument, these guys and gals usually know each other pretty well, and don't encourage others to join (unless it's an instrument they don't have). Sometimes this group is actually rehearsing for a performance.
2) larger group with a mix of standards - these people are much more social, often basic players, they encourage eveyone to join in.

Two basses might be acceptable in the second group but not the first. The key is to ask before you get your instrument out. I sometimes say to the bass player "let me know if you want a break". A couple of years ago I rocked up to a fairly large jam with a number of high calibre muso's leading it. The bass player was very competent. Anyway, to my surprise she recognised me and said "Hey, you're a bass player. Do you want to take over?" I somewhat reluctantly took over from her and spent the next hour or two having a ball.

Most bass players are pretty accommodating if they see another bass player rock up, which sounds like the guy already in your jam. As far as not playing because you didn't want to make a fool of yourself, I've always said "it is better to have loved and lost, than to have never loved at all."

When he invited you to play a song, I would have said, "Well I'm only a beginner, but I'll give it a go." That would have set a low expectation and reduced any embaressment if I did make a mess of it. What the heck - it sounds like a pretty informal jam where nobody was going to give two hoots if you stuffed up. Like I tell my daughter, you gotta learn all the wrong notes before you know which are the right ones to play!

I've often found that I can play a lot better than I give myself credit for. Sometimes you've gotta go onto the flimsy branches to get the sweetest fruit.

Happy pickin.

hublocker · #10 12-13-2011, 09:54 AM

We have outdoor jams here May to September and though I don't go often the last time I went there was another bassist way on the other side of a large group and one player asked me to leave the group.

And join him and a separate circle of the more competent players in our own jam. They didn't even know me and after a couple of tunes I was given a solo turn along with everyone else.

Bass Doc · #11 12-14-2011, 05:41 AM

Thanks to everyone for their great replies. Let me turn this question around and ask it a different way -

If YOU were the bass player ALREADY playing at a jam session (of say 15 people), and I showed up with my bass - how would you feel if I unpacked it and started to play in the same group you were already playing in? Angry? OK with it?

Would you want me as far away as possible, or OK to be near you (like in an orchestra)?

Floyd Eye · #12 12-14-2011, 05:47 AM

Playing with superior musicians is good for you. I would have asked to play, either with him or on my own for a few songs, then politely deferred back to him.

As for your last question, I don't care if you are Les Claypool, an open jam is an open jam and hogs are jerks. Of course I would gladly sit out so others can have some stage time.

That said, I never go to open jams. I'd rather gig with my band and get paid.

Antoanto · #13 12-14-2011, 06:00 AM

I think the issue is not about etiquette but more about yourself. The guy invited you to play, then you need to know what you want. You felt that he was too good and you shouldn't play, well that was your decision, not an etiquette issue. I can understand your feeling, jamming can be intimidating at times, but then if you felt unhappy, then next time you should parhaps stand up and go for it.

shadygrove · #14 12-14-2011, 02:08 PM

^ Agreed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bass Doc

Thanks to everyone for their great replies. Let me turn this question around and ask it a different way -

If YOU were the bass player ALREADY playing at a jam session (of say 15 people), and I showed up with my bass - how would you feel if I unpacked it and started to play in the same group you were already playing in? Angry? OK with it?

Would you want me as far away as possible, or OK to be near you (like in an orchestra)?

In this situation I'd expect you to ask how I felt about having two basses in a jam or if I wanted to trade off. I'm always glad to see someone else show up with a bass so I can take a break for snack and coffee or play other instruments.

If it's a new player that's feeling shy about jumping in, I'd prefer for them to set up next to me. It makes it easier to stay together if they want to play quietly and follow me or to work out who's going to play when and talk about the chord progression or any quirks in the tune that's called when they're ready to go it alone.

Playing far away from each other could create a problem for the jam... if the two basses can't hear each other and are not together the other players may get confused about who to follow. I see this all the time in jams when there are multiple guitars and no bass and none of the guitars are playing strongly enough to dominate the rhythm.

I think Dr. Piggery and many others here have given you good advice, but keep in mind that every jam is different and there really is no Miss Manners standard solution... you're going to have to work through the discomfort of each new situation until you learn the character and characters of a jam. What's perfectly OK at one may not be at another.

timonvh · #15 12-14-2011, 04:14 PM

I think Jeff's post sums it all up.
Excellent.

Timon

Steve Killingsworth · #16 12-15-2011, 01:06 PM

Personally, I think 1 bass is all you need. My experience is with two basses trying to play the same line, the timing and intonation has to be almost spot on or you get all these overtones and dissonances bouncing around. I much prefer to play a while, then hand it off to someone else.

AntonLargiader · #17 12-15-2011, 04:57 PM

But how about playing different lines? The rookie playing 1-5-1-5 and the other guy jazzing it up a bit? Not that here's necessarily THAT much room for jazzing it up in bluegrass, but there is some.

Hasn't happened to me, BTW. I'm the rookie and I'm the only bass player at jam night so far. Anyone else who shows up will be better than I am, so I'd be happy to listen and maybe back up with a 1-5.

gprigge · #18 12-16-2011, 12:17 PM

Two basses at one time doesn't cut it. Take turns. The first player should hand it off after a few tunes. Who's better is not a factor. This is not a performance; it's a jam. I go to jams with an agenda: work on timing, or intonation, or walkups, scales, whatever. Jams are wonderful opportunities to improve.

Steve Swan · #19 12-17-2011, 07:30 PM

He already asked you to play some. You could take a deep breath, tell the group that you'd like to play on half a dozen tunes/ songs, and then thank them once you've done the 6. Everybody wins that way. Those that are insecure enough not to work with you for 6 tunes or songs are people that aren't worth playing with in the future. Jamming is a social actiivity. You'll get big points with the group for doing your level best to keep the rhythm happening. Jump in next time!

**Thor** · #20 12-17-2011, 08:18 PM

The distinction here can be distilled to this:

Either the jams are 'Open Mike', or they are 'Invitational'.

At Open Mike, a host will orchestrate and manage who plays, sometimes selecting players to play together so all get a turn at playing. Sometimes there is a sign up sheet. Usually at OM's I attend, the bassists and available accompanists sign up on the side, as there are single and vocal artists that may or may not want help. Other players often get to work together. The idea is that everyone gets a chance to progress, regardless of skill level.

At 'Invitational', your are encouraged prior to attend - a subtle invite. (Why don't you came by Saturday's jam ...) You may not know who is there. Doesn't matter, who know who of the invitees may or may not show.

From a bassists perspective, if there are two of us, I expect the bandleader or host to delegate the duties between the two, usually by suggestion. He may ask the other bassist to alternate.

Also, quite frankly, when I am in that situation, I am happy to share and have a break. I may be better or worse that the other guy, but taking a whizz and working some fans is nice too as well as an occasional refreshment.

When that other bassist offered to switch off, that was your invitation. You should have taken it. That was the 'etiquette' - you were offered a switch off and declined.

From the POV of the band leader/host or other bassist, once you decline, they assume you aren't interested or for whatever reason, are not in the game. They never expected you to be stellar, they just offered you time in the saddle with a nice situation.

Next time just say, 'If I have a chance to play, that would be great, Let me know when you want to jump back in."

That is a winner with good manners and gets you time in the pocket. Bow in gracefully, do your stuff and bow out gracefully. You will then get invited back and to plenty of other situations as well.

Don't compare, overthink the stuff or marginalize yourself. Just go after the song and music.