Timing Issues/Questions

[mythmaker99]

I've played bass, both electric and upright, for years. Country, rock, bluegrass, played it all and got the badges. I've got good timing. Never had a problem until recently.

I play with a bluegrass group and one of the leads constantly speeds up. What that means is that he's not listening to me already. If I keep the same tempo there's going to be 2 different beats going on and that sounds horrible. If you haven't had that before, trust me, it does. I speed up to keep with him, which brings all the others up to his speed. So we are all together, but playing a little faster than before. I know this is not what should happen. The timing should remain the same throughout. BUT IT DOESN'T!

I think that my speeding up to play with him is a better option than having 2 different tempo's going on and sounding ragged. A few other musicians not in the group have commented and blamed me for the speeding up. I shrugg it off without comment but was wondering what you'll think.

Someone told me recently that Bill Monroe would have his group play a song and walk away from each other and then come back together to make sure all were holding the same beat. I can see why now!!

Again, I know that the best option is for me to keep the time and everyone to play with me, but that's not happening!! So, speed up to play with the lead, or keep the same tempo and have 2 different beats going on? What do you'll think?

[AntonLargiader]

I think you should be asking the rest of band. Maybe they want to speed up, maybe they don't. You are the the ones that need to agree on it.

[Jake deVilliers]

Originally Posted by mythmaker99

I've played bass, both electric and upright, for years. Country, rock, bluegrass, played it all and got the badges. I've got good timing. Never had a problem until recently.

I play with a bluegrass group and one of the leads constantly speeds up. What that means is that he's not listening to me already. If I keep the same tempo there's going to be 2 different beats going on and that sounds horrible. If you haven't had that before, trust me, it does. I speed up to keep with him, which brings all the others up to his speed. So we are all together, but playing a little faster than before. I know this is not what should happen. The timing should remain the same throughout. BUT IT DOESN'T!

I think that my speeding up to play with him is a better option than having 2 different tempo's going on and sounding ragged. A few other musicians not in the group have commented and blamed me for the speeding up. I shrugg it off without comment but was wondering what you'll think.

Someone told me recently that Bill Monroe would have his group play a song and walk away from each other and then come back together to make sure all were holding the same beat. I can see why now!!

Again, I know that the best option is for me to keep the time and everyone to play with me, but that's not happening!! So, speed up to play with the lead, or keep the same tempo and have 2 different beats going on? What do you'll think?

We'll cover a soloist who speeds up an instrumental on stage but its definitely not what we're trying to do. Songs work best at a given tempo and rushing that tempo often makes it impossible to sing properly. Get your mandolin player a metronome!

And that story involves Doyle Lawson, not Bill Monroe, whose 100th birthday is tomorrow. .

[superman]

This is a issue that has so many oppions,,It's really hard just to say someone is speeding/dragging,,ect,,bluegrass is a very complicated music to play if your playing up on top of the beat,,which is slightly a head of the beat,,,this is the way Monroe,Flatt&Scruggs,ect,,played,,they were on top of the beat and might speed up a bit but the song will settle in and remain about the same tempo,,now there are "lots" of "bluegrass" bands out there these days that come nowhere near playing on top of the beat,,and thats fine too,,you just have to have the same "like" minded players and agree on how a song is being played,,sometimes you can have just one player ruin the feel of a song,,and that might be he just doesnt understand how to play where the song is,,top,middle or back of the beat,,I worked with Jesse McRenoylds for years Jesse's mandolin playing drug when he sang,,then he took off while playing a solo,,we,"the band" knew this and knew how to hold/push it along to keep the song steady,,I also played for a while with another high profile artist,which will remain nameless,,but this artist employed a guitar player that always pushed the beat,,even on slower country songs,,it made it very hard to work with this band,,as the bass player I had to either lock in with the guitar and rush,,or play with the mandolin who was the lead singer and be in the pocket ,,as I told the artist when I quit ,,I can play with you or I can play with the guitar,,I just cannt play with both at the same time,,too many tempos going on,,and neither would listen to the bass.
this is complicated to explain,,easyr to do with some samples of music,,remember Bill Monroe said bluegrass aint played fast,,it's played quick,,there is a difference.

[JeffKissell]

EVERYONE is responsible for time in any ensemble.
The band needs to have a frank (and sometimes frankly uncomfortable) discussion about tempo and beat. They are actually 2 different but related elements of performance. As long as you all agree on what you want the music to sound like, take turns laying out while everyone else plays the whole song and you'll know soon enough who's responsible for the tempo changes. It's been my experience that when the offender is not playing the rest of the band has no problem holding a tempo.
-Jeff

[mythmaker99]

Great comments from you'll. I'm going to combine the replies into this one post. Sorry if it causes confusion:

Superman- Great post. And correct. I play on 'top' of the beat and have a driving bass. When I'm playing a song I lock in with the guitar/singer. Usually it's the same one luckily so I don't have your problem of a differnet guitar player vs singer. So when there's vocals we're tight. It's when there's no vocals and he starts his leads...And to be even more precise, on slow songs, not a problem. On songs that are flat out flying, no problem (probably cause he/we can't speed up LOL). It's those middle of the road songs where we start out at one tempo and after his leads we're at another tempo. He's working on it and I don't think it's as bad as it was, but still not steady. We're good, it's just that one area.

Jake-good catch on the Monroe Vs Doyle. And that's what we do. Better that it speeds up than slows downs and drags in my humble opinion.

Antonlargiarder-Good point, up to a point. Again, we all want to stay together and be tight. The preferred choice is for all of us to play together at the speed we start at, unless it's a rawhide type song. He's working on keeping the tempo but still speeds up on solos. Adrenaline maybe, or maybe from playing jams and wanting to show off and play as fast as you can.

For those of you who don't have this problem, enjoy.

And for everyone, don't let anyone tell you they are counting on YOU for THEIR time.

How many times have you been onstage and because of amplification problems or crowd noise, or whatever, everyone in the group can't hear each other? I know I've played shows and couldn't clearly hear the instruments on the wings. If they don't have their time down and suddenly they can't hear you clear...

[funkinbottom]

Originally Posted by mythmaker99

Again, I know that the best option is for me to keep the time and everyone to play with me, but that's not happening!! So, speed up to play with the lead, or keep the same tempo and have 2 different beats going on? What do you'll think?

Yeah, that can be a tough one. Especially at a gig. But IMHO my read on this has always been, you can't let one person with bad meter make the rest of the band guilty by association of having bad meter. It's hard some times but you've got to stay true to tempo. Otherwise, you yourself may develop lazy time/meter habits that could carry over to other projects you're involved with.

One of the projects I play in has a similar problem. Guitarist/vocalist tends to rush. Sometimes big time rush. The rest of the band always holds true to tempo. Well, as steady as you can when playing with someone who, at times it seems, thinks songs are a race. (no prize for finishing first) He'll give us the *** look or stop a song and ask "what's up, why you slowing down"? We politely say "well, that was the tempo you started at. If you would like it faster no sweat, count it a little faster and we will gladly play at that tempo, but we can't rush through the whole song"
If it gets that bad, we fire up the metronome or drum machine at rehearsal.

Bottom line. If you and the others have good meter, exercise it.

[mythmaker99]

Thanks, Funkinbottom, and I 1/2 way agree with you. In practise, we've stopped in mid song and reset the tempo, or reconfirmed that it is right where it was. Next time through it was better. But on stage in front of a crowd, mid way through a song...there's no stopping because of timing issues. And while the musicians in the crowd will notice and frown, most of the crowd won't hear a thing wrong.

And that's just like every other mistake that you make while playing. You hear and remember everything that you or one of your band mates miss, and most of the crowd doesn't notice them unless it's just plain awful LOL.

[funkinbottom]

Originally Posted by mythmaker99

But on stage in front of a crowd, mid way through a song...there's no stopping because of timing issues. And while the musicians in the crowd will notice and frown, most of the crowd won't hear a thing wrong..

I know. You just gotta go with it sometimes or it can be a complete train wreck, but it is nerve wracking non the less.

I feel your pain brother.

[MIN]

There are a couple of things I do when I'm playing with someone whose timing is suspect. I play a lot of different styles of music and these tricks work in pretty much any situation I'm in:

1) I always try to make sure that every note that comes out of my bass is played with authority. You can hear the difference between an unconfident bassist and someone who isn't afraid to lay it down. It's not about volume or playing hard, it's about conviction. When someone starts to drift off, I pour a little extra authority into my notes and a lot of times that'll bring someone back.

2) I establish eye contact with the band. Not just the person who's stepping out of line, but also the rest of the players. Lock in with people and get them to pay attention to what I'm doing and to start following me.

3) Doing a little slapping, pedaling or heavy foot tapping to bring people back to the right tempo (this helps when things are dragging too).

I'm right with JeffKissell when he said that everyone is responsible for keeping time. A lot of times people want to blame the bass player when the timing goes crazy. Sometimes the best thing to do is just follow the person on their tangent. There are a lot of things we can do to keep things in line, but there are limits.

Remember: as the bass player, you are the bus driver. They didn't call Milt Hinton "the Judge" for nothing!

[Beginner Bass]

If he's not listening, that's an issue in itself that probably exacerbates the rushing situation. If you can just get him to listen, you should be able to keep more solid time. Assuming of course, you're time is good.

But as for following the rusher or not, different people will say different things. One school is that when you make a point of staying true, it makes the rushing more obvious, or, if everyone else is off, makes you sound slow.

It might help perhaps if you could play him a recording of his playing. If a tempo change isn't intentional, the listener will always be able to tell.

[johnz]

Following along MIN's list of suggestions: Another thing you can try is to (at least while the offending player is soloing) give your notes a full 1/8 or 1/4 beat measure. Normally in bluegrass, you want each note to "pop" with a strong front end and a really rapid decay. Unfortunately, at moderate and slow tempos, this gives a low-performing soloist a lot of room to go wrong, (they're playing 1/8th and 1/16th notes to your 1/2 notes). If you "stretch" your note, you're not only telling them where the current beat is, but, also telegraphing where the next beat is going to be. Sometimes that works. Sometimes, not so well.

Just to state the obvious, the common way to keep a bluegrass band on the "rhythmic rails" is for you, the bass, to lock up with the mandolin player. That way, you get a "four to the floor" feeling that can be really compelling. Of course, I'm being presumptuous here: I don't know whether or not the mandolin player is the problem, or even if you have a mandolin player in your band!

For those of you who don't have this problem, enjoy.

I think EVERYBODY has this problem sooner or later. I think funkinbottom's caution about damaging your own playing by playing with such people is worth paying attention to. Sometimes, there is no way to fix the problem and your best option is to walk away from it.

I do feel your pain!

[RustyAxe]

I play with a singer/songwriter (jazz, blues) and when we first started playing together I'd get blamed for rushing ... by his wife. It didn't take too long before they realized it wasn't me rushing, it was him. He now listens to my bass, and stays on tempo. It took a frank discussion after listening to a recorded gig. On many songs I hold back and let him do a long intro, and come in after he's set the tempo ... and then I maintain whatever he set. Try playing sometime with a drummer who speeds up during instrumental breaks. That will make you crazy! I unintentionally got a drummer fired one time. I was a sub in a country band (played with them dozens of times) and I commented to the band leader that the new drummer was drivin' me nuts with his tempo changes mid-song. When the keyboard player agreed, the BL rubbed his chin pensively. Never saw that drummer again.

[Dr Piggery]

What about guys that count the song in at one tempo and start playing something completely different!

[mythmaker99]

LOL I love the ones that practise a song in one certain tempo and chord, and then on stage suddenly it's in a different chord and your're just shaking your head wondering where did he get this tempo from? And silently greatfeul that he called the chord out as he was introducing the song LOL. That was a lead singer/guitar play I played with that sometimes had big brain cramps on stage!

Great ideas/suggestions from you'll. Some I can use, and some I can't.

I'm behind and between the 2 singers in the group, in the middle of the band on stage. With the fiddle player (when we have one) and mandolin to the sides. That really helps when the singers are leaning over talking to each other about either changing the set list because of crowd responce or request, or changing song chord or changing who's going to sing lead and harmony on a song because one's having problems hitting certain notes right then. I guess we are lucky that they can swap out parts like that. We actually are pretty good. Just want to polish the apple!

In practise the heavy foot stomping will help, I think, on stage won't. With the amplification foot tapping/stomping won't be heard.
Just ordered a metronome for our practises. Can't wait to see what they say about that LOL. Should have already had one but like stated, never had problem with timing in the groups I've played with before.

Love playing with these guys and we get along great. Not going to quit with them. He's aware he speeds up and working on it.

[wallawallabob]

I find that kicking the offending speeder/dragger in time to the beat works well. If you can't kick the offender, kick the one next to you and tell 'em to pass it on.......

[mpdd]

thank you for this insightful and interesting thread

[Jack Clark]

I ran this by bassist Marshall Hawkins recently because I was experiencing the same problem. He said that he can't let a gig sound bad by stubbornly sticking with his rhythm—he's got to adjust to the soloist, even if he/she screws it up bad. But in rehearsal, it's a different thing; he tries to pull the soloist back on beat, even if the tune breaks down. Then they about it.

[lefty5]

the bass sets the time,,,, you are the treadmill for the band,,, the guy speeding up is the one breaking the rules,, not you. this should be worked out in practice or out behind the barn !!!! that is one that really drives me CRAZY,,,,,, and i am a banjo player! (sometimes bass)



terry m

[Turdfurgeson]

In the situation you are in, the only objective resolution is to rehearse as a band with a LOUD drum machine / metronome playing. This is the only way to REALLY find out who is speeding up, who isn't, and who has a good sense of time. I have advocated practicing as a band like this for a long time. However, it isn't the easy to convince other, less rhythmically supportive, members to practice that way. Its challenging, but it teaches other members of the band (perhaps that don't have the experience you have with a metronome/drum machine) to LISTEN to the beat as opposed to neglect it during a solo.

Thoughts on this?