What makes a good Bluegrass Bassist ?

[Doley50]

Hello,

I have been playing electric and upright bass for over twenty years , and as a Bluegrass player I can hear the difference between a great Banjo, Mando, Guitarist or Fiddle player , But when it comes to the Bass I just don't get it.
I have listen to many bassist and while I think the older guys from the 40's and 50's did more with there bass playing then today players do , it is still very easy stuff to play.
The biggest challenge is the physical demands of the instrument , but that can't be counted , can it ?
I know there are the basics that a beginner has to struggle with intonation , timing , tone , grove ,turn a-rounds , and other basic stuff , but at a professional level these are seconded nature.
When I listen to Todd Phillips and Mark Shatz I would not say they suck , but in all honestly can they clam to be on the same level as Edgar Meyer ( ok who can , maybe not fair )
I guess what I'm saying is I have been playing the guitar for just as long and there is stuff that Tony Rice , Doc Watson , Bryan Sutton and others play that I can't do without some serious practice and even then probable not , but I have not heard anything form bluegrass bassist that makes me want to go home , and practice.
Please don't get the wrong idea I'm not bashing Bluegrass Bass playing , and I am not claiming to be a great bass player. I just don't get how one bass player can be judged better then another.

Again , I want to make it clear that I'm not trying to start a fight , but rather learn what I'm missing , and create a conversation about this.

Thank You
John

[lowEndRick]

I suspect this line of questioning will stir some controversy, but I think the first thing to look at is "who gets the work". There is a reason some bass players get more work than others. Yes, their personality and assertiveness has something to do with it, but elements of their playing also has a lot to do with what makes them more appealing.

Just about anyone can play root-five over the changes, but how many can do it with great tone and really drive the band? Mike Bub can do it all day long in his sleep. I recently sat on the side of the stage and watched him sit in for a set with Old Crowe Medicine show UNREHEARSED. Yes, he has the skill to play an entire set without knowing the material ahead of time. How many players can do that at that level?

Have you seen Mark Shatz take a solo recently during Wabash Cannonball in Claire Lynch's band. His sense of timing, phrasing along both jazz and orchestral technique sets him apart from a lot of players.

How about Marshall Wilborn's ability to play melody when he slaps? I hardly know anybody that can do that at this level.

And then there is the more subtle stuff. Watch Mike Barber with the Gibson Brothers. He has an incredible toolbox of rhythmic techniques, but the trick he has mastered is using it all sparingly with taste so that it serves the music best.

And there are tons of players that do not play on top or ahead of the beat and as a result they make the band drag. There are times where you want to lay back, but more often than not you want to drive the band. Make it swing. Some people do not know or can't hear the difference.

I've been told that it doesn't take much to be a bluegrass bass player, and I agree. Lots of people can play root-five with good timing. But the players mentioned above (and many others) can do things that set them apart. Its just not all flash and pyrotechnics. Its a much more subtle art.

[wineaux]

As Rick says, it's all about driving the band because in most cases the bassist is the rhythm section (sometimes with help from a chopping mandolin).

It's a different role than playing bass in a classical or jazz setting. Listen, for example, to Edgar play bluegrass. He's terrific, but it doesn't sound like he's playing Bach's Cello Suites. Or listen to Roy Huskey Jr. on Iris DeMint's "Our Town." Simple, but with some little flavorings to keep it interesting, all in rock solid time and terrific intonation.

Like talented chefs, the best bluegrass bass thumpers know just what to add and when to add it. I'm still at the boiling water stage of my bass playing, but every once in a while, I can cook up something tasty. Marshall Wilborn and Tom Gray and Missy Raines can do it every time. That's the difference.

[Steve Killingsworth]

On the other hand, check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PP8nj56u1nw

The tune is certainly more than 3 chords and a cloud of dust but listen how Byron goes 1-5, adds octaves, little runs, and mixes eighth, quarter, and half notes and still drives the music. To my ear, it never sounds too busy or rushed. Everything falls into place. Of course, playing like this wouldn't work on every tune but when it does--wow!

But that illustrates what makes a good bluegrass bassist (or any type of bassist)--they play what fits. I've heard Missy Raines play on many tunes. Sometimes she plays straight ahead root-five, sometimes she walks like Walter Page, but whatever she does, it matches the music.

[wineaux]

I think we're all on the same page here -- playing what fits is the key. Byron had a lot more space playing in a trio than he might have if there was also a banjo and a fiddle or dobro, and he was able to make great use of that space.

[filthywrench]

Great thread Wineaux. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I've been playing out in bands for many years, mostly as a mandolin or acoustic guitar player. And I know what I like in a bass player. Simple and in time. But recently I've been playing upright bass with a country guy and when I do basically root/5 stuff, I feel like I'm not doing enough. I know I'm playing in time - I feel the rhythm, but I keep feeling like I should be playing something more fancy. On the other hand, when I play electric bass with a 60's/70's band I fill in for, I don't have the feeling like I'm keeping it too simple. Maybe because of the sustain of the electric bass. Ever listen to Bill Wyman? That's pretty basic stuff but I like it. Not that I only do 1/5 stuff with that band, but I feel secure in playing relatively simple stuff (no bass solos in the middle of a vocal chorus). And that band is happy with me - they've told me that if I could sing like Graham Nash (way up there) that they would hire me as their full time bass player (they play a lot). Anyway, the point is, I like simplicity in a bass player and it feels right doing that on electric bass, but when I do it on my upright it feels like there should be more there. Anyone else have that experience? Sorry to be so verbose, but one difference I can think of is the band I play elecric with is pretty good, but the country guy is lacking some drive. So maybe I feel like I need to be the driver. Who knows.

[Gufenov]

Originally Posted by Steve Killingsworth

The tune is certainly more than 3 chords and a cloud of dust but listen how Byron goes 1-5, adds octaves, little runs, and mixes eighth, quarter, and half notes and still drives the music. To my ear, it never sounds too busy or rushed. Everything falls into place. Of course, playing like this wouldn't work on every tune but when it does--wow!

Excellent exaple, Steve. Byron drives the song, and adds flavor as well.

There is a school of though in Bluegrass that says the bass should "keep it simple" by playing I-V and nothing else. Of course, nobody tells the mando player to "only chop," or the rythym guitar player to "only strum," etc. A band is a team - EACH member contributes - or not - depending on their ability and the fit with the music.

[Roger Harper]

I played guitar, then mando in bluegrass bands before I switched to upright. As a beginner, I was happy to play I-V in time and did only that for quite a while. Once I got bored, I decided to start studying jazz. Now, when I play bluegrass, I find I am doing more just naturally and my band mates seem to love it.

A couple of months ago we were playing Nine Pound Hammer. I decided to start walking the second verse and we spontaneously started to swing the tune. Man , it was great and now we do it that way all the time - straight first verse and swing the rest.

I guess my point is, in addition to listening to what some of the bluegrass bass players are doing, pick up some other styles, and see where they lead you.

The other big help when I got to jazz is the bass has to drive the band in both styles of music so I was used to pushing the beat. It took awhile in jazz, because I was tentative, but once I caught on, it kinda came together.

Roger

[Jason Sypher]

I actually disagree that it's easy to play Bluegrass bass well. It's easy to think you're playing bluegrass well. It's even easy to fool a lot of folks around you that you are playing bluegrass well (you know that loud guy three airstreams over that plays those ill-timed-out-of-tune-nonsense licks that makes them howl all night but sound terrible when you're listening in the tent?). Tone, time, feel, taste, skill, dynamic control, shape and direction of your lines and chord choices, beat, blend, leadership, command, communication. Those are a lot of things to juggle at once and the two chord songs can be the hardest.

What are you gonna do with two chords and make all that happen, and KEEP happening, and KEEP innovating and inspiring the other players, solo after solo? What are you going to do different with the next song even though it's the same chord structure? Are there any substitutions that you might try towards the end of the song that will turn the whole thing on it's head and make the melody sound beautiful in a new way for the outro? Who's lagging, who's pushing, what are you gonna do about that? Can you bring them into the groove and help them blend? What kind of on-the-fly arranging can you do with the guitarist that will give the song a more interesting shape, beginning or ending? Are you anchoring the whole thing with total authority? What are you gonna do if they turn to you next for a solo? Do you know the entire melody in a couple of positions? Can you bow it with drive? Can you slap the whole melody without being clunky or out of time but musical and beautiful? How quick can you pick up changes and how quickly can you make them musical, not just I-V etc. These are the questions that go through my mind while I'm playing any music but the fiddle tunes go by fast and you have to really be thinking ahead to take it to another level.

I don't know Todd but Mark is a friend. I don't think either of them are on Edgar's level but who is really? I mean, there are classical guys with the chops and training but Edgar is Edgar, an artist, an individual. It's really apples and oranges, as it should be. No player should be judged on or against the merits of another.
I know Mark is inspired by Edgar and has put in a lot of work on the bow and has come a long way towards expressing his own voice on the instrument.

[ctxbass]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

I actually disagree that it's easy to play Bluegrass bass well.

+1
I've been a pro bassist for over 30 years. I don't play bluegrass that often, but occassionally some friends of mine will call me to sub in their band. In spite of the limited chord changes, bluegrass pushes me to my limits (that's really what I enjoy about playing any music). I find it challenging to get the timing precise, with the right feel, and keep it happening.
It is all a matter of how "well" you want to play. No matter how good, one can always improve.

[Steve Killingsworth]

Well said Jason.

[lowEndRick]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

I actually disagree that it's easy to play Bluegrass bass well. ... .

I think you may have been referring to my post Jason, forgive me if I read it wrong. I just want to clarify that I agree with you. I didn't say it is "easy to play bluegrass bass well". I said it is easy to play root-five over the changes with good timing. I should have stated more clearly that I believe it takes more than root-five with good timing. You have to know how to play in a way that drives the band which usually means playing ahead of the beat or really on top of it. Or sometimes knowing when to play slightly behind the beat. I see lot of players who are not aware of all those subtlties.

Your post really nails many of the dynamics and musicanship skills that you need to be a really good bluegrass bass player.

[MollyKay]

Great thread with some great opposing insight and that’s cool. As a novice that has learned completely by ear, certain there is ample room for improvement…I can relate to Rick’s statement. I found it fairly easy to pick up bluegrass music with a small intro from guitar but I feel it will take a life time to become a really good player (or play bluegrass well) as Jason says. As a jammer (I do not play with a band) I can tell when we get the right group of players together, my playing is elevated and pushed to the limits…but goodness is it fun. Other jams drag on for lack of any energy, timing, or passion for the music. I find Byron House and Mike Bub are great fun to listen to and watch…I like the energy bluegrass can have when the bass drives good solid players.

Jason…based on your passionate statement for good bluegrass; I think “Vince” is calling your name.

[Gearhead43]

Originally Posted by Jason Sypher

I actually disagree that it's easy to play Bluegrass bass well. It's easy to think you're playing bluegrass well. It's even easy to fool a lot of folks around you that you are playing bluegrass well (you know that loud guy three airstreams over that plays those ill-timed-out-of-tune-nonsense licks that makes them howl all night but sound terrible when you're listening in the tent?). Tone, time, feel, taste, skill, dynamic control, shape and direction of your lines and chord choices, beat, blend, leadership, command, communication. Those are a lot of things to juggle at once and the two chord songs can be the hardest.

What are you gonna do with two chords and make all that happen, and KEEP happening, and KEEP innovating and inspiring the other players, solo after solo? What are you going to do different with the next song even though it's the same chord structure? Are there any substitutions that you might try towards the end of the song that will turn the whole thing on it's head and make the melody sound beautiful in a new way for the outro? Who's lagging, who's pushing, what are you gonna do about that? Can you bring them into the groove and help them blend? What kind of on-the-fly arranging can you do with the guitarist that will give the song a more interesting shape, beginning or ending? Are you anchoring the whole thing with total authority? What are you gonna do if they turn to you next for a solo? Do you know the entire melody in a couple of positions? Can you bow it with drive? Can you slap the whole melody without being clunky or out of time but musical and beautiful? How quick can you pick up changes and how quickly can you make them musical, not just I-V etc. These are the questions that go through my mind while I'm playing any music but the fiddle tunes go by fast and you have to really be thinking ahead to take it to another level.

.

This is a great ****ing post, possibly the best I've seen here on Talk-ass, and can be applied to all types of music.

[Jason Sypher]

LowEnd, I wasn't specifically referring to you post. I get what you're saying. I think I had the OP in mind although I did get into a bit of a rant there. The OP states :

"it is still very easy stuff to play"

I guess I never looked at it like that. When I first started playing it I was coming out of a jazz background and I found many aspects of it to be very challenging.

"The biggest challenge is the physical demands of the instrument , but that can't be counted , can it ?"

Well, why not? I think playing in the key of A for twenty five minutes can be hard on the hands....

"I know there are the basics that a beginner has to struggle with intonation , timing , tone , grove ,turn a-rounds , and other basic stuff but at a professional level these are seconded nature."

I can only speak for myself but these are always on my mind.

[ERIC A]

I was told by a fairly well know blues guitarist that the best blues bassist is a player who just loves the blues. Their are not many bass players (especially jazz players) who are willing to play in a very minimal way all night long without going crazy. But, that is what the music calls for. So if you are not willing to play simple and just groove, don't take the gig. I know when I take a blues or a roots type gig I just put myself in a "keep it simple" mind-set and that make the band happy. I think that is what makes a good blues, roots, bluegrass bassist, just a love of the music and a willingness to play the parts the music requires. It will also keep you working a lot.

[Jason Sypher]

Originally Posted by ERIC A

I was told by a fairly well know blues guitarist that the best blues bassist is a player who just loves the blues. Their are not many bass players (especially jazz players) who are willing to play in a very minimal way all night long without going crazy. But, that is what the music calls for. So if you are not willing to play simple and just groove, don't take the gig. I know when I take a blues or a roots type gig I just put myself in a "keep it simple" mind-set and that make the band happy. I think that is what makes a good blues, roots, bluegrass bassist, just a love of the music and a willingness to play the parts the music requires. It will also keep you working a lot.

Well that's kind of what I'm ranting against. If you think it's an easy, coasting, kind of gig, then you're probably not playing very good Bluegrass. I've seen them come and I've seen them go, jazz players who think they're gonna lower themselves and play some "fun" music with the simple folk. What's lost on them is that those few notes "mean" something and they have to be there, and they have to be right. Play one note off walking "There is No Greater Love" and the band will hear it, play one note off in "Up Jumped Trouble" and the band will FEEL it. And the chord players might think you're changing up the progression. Oh, I could go off forever but what's the point. Like real Blues or Balkan or a lot of folk musics, if you don't play with your gut on every beat it's gonna sound wimpy and not really make sense. A lot of these songs are intense expressions of humanity. You gotta feel it deeply and you have to play it intelligently. Ok, that's it about that....

[longfinger]

Originally Posted by ERIC A

I was told by a fairly well know blues guitarist that the best blues bassist is a player who just loves the blues. Their are not many bass players (especially jazz players) who are willing to play in a very minimal way all night long without going crazy. But, that is what the music calls for. So if you are not willing to play simple and just groove, don't take the gig. I know when I take a blues or a roots type gig I just put myself in a "keep it simple" mind-set and that make the band happy. I think that is what makes a good blues, roots, bluegrass bassist, just a love of the music and a willingness to play the parts the music requires. It will also keep you working a lot.

I like the accuracy of this quote, though necessarily the reality it represents. Combined with certain points from the OP, I'd also like to add: certain styles of music focus more on certain instruments.

Some styles, have the electric guitar has lead, some have the violin, others the accordion, others the banjo, others the acoustic guitar, others the harmonica, etc. The players of those lead instruments really do have to work harder to fulfill their role, than do the supporting players in the band. When they do that, they get more attention. As the tradition develops, the lead players have more tradition to cover, and have to work even harder to distinguish themselves. When they do that, they become stars in their field of music.

Not all music styles are made by 'bands of equals'. Some music really does come from a tradition of lead player, plus backing band. It really does take less work to fulfill a role in the 'backing band' than it does to fulfill a role as 'lead player'.

So in those styles, very often a musician can hear a lead player and want to go woodshed, while much less often a musician will hear a backing player and want to go woodshed.

that's ok.

(On another angle, who makes the audience want to dance?)

[flip18436572]

I like the last post about the lead players. In our case, the lead player is that. He is lead on acoustic guitar, mandolin, dobro, banjo and now fiddle. We added another guitar player so he can do more leads on more songs.

I try to keep it simple, and try to keep it steady, but I am sure there are times that I should be "Adding" more to some of the songs. That is why I would like to see more bass players live, and doing some of the same tunes we are doing.

[Jake deVilliers]

Nicely expressed Jason!

You said what I've been wanting to say but with waaay fewer f words than I would have used...