2007 MIM Jazz neck: Best action w/o constant adjustment?

[perucci]

This is a question for people with a Fender MIM Jazz who have had it for a while and like low action...

...I've got a new (built in 2007) Fender MIM Jazz. Specifically on a MIM Jazz, with it's thin neck and construction particular to this Fender neck, how low can the action typically go without seasonal truss-rod adjustments?

With my dual truss-rod Ibanez neck, with 5 layers of wood (plus fretboard!), you can "beat the truss rod with a stick" and still have little effect on the neck; the neck is that strong! On the MIM Jazz (mine anyway), though, a small change to the truss-rod has a big impact on relief. I can do an OK setup (except shimming, which scares me), but I'm wondering what is reasonable "low action" for a recent Fender MIM Jazz without frequent truss-rod adjustments for humidity.

I have access to the Fender "specs", but I'm looking for real-world experience.

[202dy]

Most manufacturers set up their bass guitars with a string height of 6/64" (2.4mm) and 5/64" (2mm) bass and treble side respectively measured at the twelfth fret from the top of the fret to the bottom of the string. Relief is usually set at ~.012" (.3mm) as measured at the seventh fret. The amount of relief is partially dependent on the quality of the fretwork and initial fingerboard leveling. This spec seems to please everybody. And nobody.

Some necks are more sensitive to changes in the weather than others. Some environments are more stable than others. A stable environment will go a long way to promoting neck stability. A well insulated structure that is equipped with a good HVAC system including humidity control is key.

Allow the neck to go through a one year cycle before judging just how greatly it is affected by the weather. Then decide how sensitive you are to the changes. Some players are more sensitive to changes in action than others. If you find that making simple truss rod adjustments a couple times a year are more trouble than you are willing to put up with then finding a good luthier or a graphite neck is a good idea.

[perucci]

Without doing much setup, the buzz-less action minimum seems to be about 8/64 (both bass & treble side). I tightened-up the truss-rod a bit last night and could immediately feel the improvement on the lower frets (below fret 12). I tend to suspect the limiting factor will be the high frets (shim needed), but I want to get all the basics to "spec" before making that determination.

As much as anything, I guess I was wondering what sort of action folks were able to get with the typical MIM Jazz. The 8/64 is already about the same as my Ibanez (not quite) which feels good to me, but the Ibanez has flatwounds which presumably allow lower action.

Most of the Fenders I find hanging on the wall at music stores either have action so high as to be "challenging" or the neck is so straight that you get fret-buzz on every fret.

[202dy]

You appear to be a reasonable adult. Understand that all of this is said with respect.

Originally Posted by perucci

Without doing much setup, the buzz-less action minimum seems to be about 8/64 (both bass & treble side). I tightened-up the truss-rod a bit last night and could immediately feel the improvement on the lower frets (below fret 12). I tend to suspect the limiting factor will be the high frets (shim needed), but I want to get all the basics to "spec" before making that determination.

Truss rod adjustments determine relief. Minimum string clearance relief is limited by the quality of the fretwork and the individual player's technique. String height is adjusted afterward. String height is adjusted at the bridge. Shimming a neck is used to change the neck angle. Fret dressing is employed to take care of the frets. Adjusting neck angle to allow for uneven fretwork is a band aid repair. It doesn't fix the problem. It just gets you around it for a certain period of time. When you adjusted the truss rod, what was the improvement?

Spec was listed above.

As much as anything, I guess I was wondering what sort of action folks were able to get with the typical MIM Jazz. The 8/64 is already about the same as my Ibanez (not quite) which feels good to me, but the Ibanez has flatwounds which presumably allow lower action.

Most players will balk at 8/64". Strings have only a marginal, if any effect on string height.

Most of the Fenders I find hanging on the wall at music stores either have action so high as to be "challenging" or the neck is so straight that you get fret-buzz on every fret.

Too many variables here. Depending on the market and the retailer this data could be meaningful. Or not. In LA or NYC, a large retailer is moving the inventory quickly. The guitars go out the door pretty much the way they came from the factory. In Bugtussle USA, the small retailer might have some of the guitars hanging on the rack for six months at a time There may be no humidity control in the store or it might be so small that the air is exchanged every time someone goes in or out the front door. This is compounded by the fact that most of these stores do not have luthiery services on site. All of this will have a negative effect on how the guitars play. As far as buzzing goes, it is not unusual for someone who likes action at 8/64" to pull hard. Pulling harder makes guitars set up lower buzz.

[perucci]

Many thanks for the insight 202dy! I don't have measurements after the truss-rod adjustment yet; I wanted to let the 1/4 turn I did last night settle-in. Tonight, I'll do a more formal "setup".

I did notice, though, that the action on the frets below the 12th fret or so "felt" better. In sighting down the neck before the 1/4 turn, there was quite a bit of "bow". After the 1/4 turn, there was much less "bow", and zero fret-buzz at that "wonderful" 8/64" string-height as measured at the 17th fret. Again, though, I'll be using the Fender specs tonight to do a more careful job. Up to this point, I've just been "inspecting" my new bass, and wanted to make sure the truss-rod adjusted OK (wasn't stripped or stuck). I had just ordered (and sent back!) a supposedly brand-new bass with a partially stripped truss-rod nut, so I'm being extra cautious. The A string was even damaged above the nut; it looked like somebody adjusted (and partially stripped) the truss-rod at full string tension.

For now, any thoughts on my "distillation" of the wisdom here on TB (from Willis' site) would be much appreciated:

- if you lower the strings and only frets 1-5 buzz, neck is too straight
- if you lower the strings and only frets 12 up buzz, neck is too curved
- if you lower the strings and all frets buzz, your strings are just too low.

1. I could not find this on Willis' site - hopefully this is correct.
2. It is my *understanding* that when you lower the action and get fret-buzz above the 12th fret, you need to shim the head-stock side of the neck/body joint.

On point #2 above, I realize it is important to distinguish between bad fretwork and a true neck-angle problem. I'm assuming that a true neck-angle problem would be more consistent between strings/frets above the 12th fret, whereas bad fretwork would show-up in more isolated cases, but I'm "all eyes", so to speak, so corrections to my thinking are welcome!

[perucci]

FYI, after tightening-up the truss-rod some more (not quite as straight a neck as "Fender spec"; a bit more gap than 0.012" at the 8th fret), I got the string height to between 7/64" and 6/64", depending on the string, as measured at the 17th fret.

Most of the problem with the "feel" which gave me some cause for concern seems to have been below the 12th fret, where there was apparently way too much neck relief.

While this isn't quite as good action as what some report here, to me it "plays like butter" since I've never had a better bass. At this point, as long as the neck stays stable, I'm a happy Jazz MIM owner.

Now, if only those MIM pickup pole-pieces on the A & D strings didn't bother my fingers when I play over the pickups and hit them sometimes. Still, the pickup-height is "spec".

[Turnaround]

Originally Posted by perucci

- if you lower the strings and only frets 1-5 buzz, neck is too straight
- if you lower the strings and only frets 12 up buzz, neck is too curved
- if you lower the strings and all frets buzz, your strings are just too low.

I find these maxims to be a it simplistic. For instance, if you lower the strings and you have fret buzz only from the twelfth fret up, the problem is not too much relief since the relief has little if any effect at the twelfth fret. The problem could be that the strings are too low and the bridge should be raised. Or there could be a "ski jump" at the body joint (a not uncommon problem with bolt on necks). Or the problem could be raised or eneven frets - etc. etc. The work around may be to raise the bridge and reduce the relief, but it may not be the right solution.

But to be fair, the Gary Willis method works for a number of people who don't have a lot of experience and want to try setups themselves.

FWIW, I have a MIM Jazz from 2007. Typically the neck is a bit "whippy", a result of a narrow thin design and not the best rock maple. It will require seasonal adjustments to play optimally - nature of the beast. But you should be able to find a reasonable compromise relief setting if you experiment a bit. For myself, I don't like to make those compromises, so I adjust relief somewhere around 15 times a year. I should learn to be less picky.

[202dy]

^^^

Well said.

[jady]

I have a 2007 MIM Jazz and had it set up and the frets checked out. With a little leveling I have pretty low action and when it lowered a bit this winter I just gave the saddle screws a 1/2 turn or so and it is great. No neck adjustment needed.

[perucci]

Originally Posted by Turnaround

...
FWIW, I have a MIM Jazz from 2007. Typically the neck is a bit "whippy", a result of a narrow thin design and not the best rock maple. It will require seasonal adjustments to play optimally - nature of the beast. But you should be able to find a reasonable compromise relief setting if you experiment a bit. For myself, I don't like to make those compromises, so I adjust relief somewhere around 15 times a year. I should learn to be less picky.

Logically, I realized that the Jazz MIM neck would tend to be very "finicky", since it is not laminated (except fretboard) or reinforced. Still, after being used to my laminated "serving-tray" 6-string neck, I was surprised that after I adjusted the relief so it was "just right" on the MIM Jazz, a couple of hours later it had changed.

I now know why I see people say "no more than 1/4 turn per day on the truss-rod"!

[202dy]

Originally Posted by perucci

Logically, I realized that the Jazz MIM neck would tend to be very "finicky", since it is not laminated (except fretboard) or reinforced. Still, after being used to my laminated "serving-tray" 6-string neck, I was surprised that after I adjusted the relief so it was "just right" on the MIM Jazz, a couple of hours later it had changed.

I now know why I see people say "no more than 1/4 turn per day on the truss-rod"!

Some necks seem to take a while to settle. Most do not. An hour or two on the majority of those that do is enough.

The people who say "no more that 1/4 turn per day" are woefully misinformed. Think about it. How could a manufacturer get the instruments out the door in a timely fashion? If this were true it would take weeks to adjust some instruments. Repair shops all over the world would be out of business in the time it takes to adjust one guitar.

Turn the truss rod nut until the the desired relief is attained. If you wish to wait before continuing the process, have at it. I, for one, will continue with the process. The five out of a thousand necks that continue moving will always be frustrating but not nearly as frustrating as the out-of-the-case-adjust-back-in-the-case-back-out-of-the-case-adjust ad infintum method of repair.