Action being higher in upper registers.

[Tommy el Gato]

Now, I've talked to a couple techs who work in shops, and they all say that action should be consistent all the way across the instrument. Here's my problem: It's not.

I've got a Fender Jazz (MIM, from '95) that has never had consistent action, which always sky-rockets in the upper registers. Every time I've taken it to a shop, it comes back with even higher action there in the upper registers. I did just get it back from a fret-level, and it is more consistent, but I still have perfect action at the first and horridly high action at the 20th (which I do use... ).

According to a guide I found here on this forum, my truss-rod is perfect considering it buzzes all the way across the fretboard, consistantly too. The buzz is annoying, but I hesitate from raising the action considering how bad the upper register will be.

I never really thought much of it till recently, considering there's an upright bass at school that does the same thing.

Anyone got any ideas?

[JimmyM]

There is no way you can have the same string height at the first fret and the 20th fret. Maybe you're asking too much out of your bass. Or maybe you should go to http://www.fender.com/support/basses.php and read the setup guide and see if you're in the ballpark.

Thanks to the written word not being as effective at communication as looking and feeling, and also a lot of people on here who talk out of their asses, sometimes thoughts aren't communicated exactly as intended, and get a little misinterpreted by the reader. I think this is what's going on here.

[Foamy]

The string is a straight line, and the neck is bowed or straight depending on the amount of relief.

The amount of "action", is it's amount of parallelism of the string and the neck, right?

That is set by the saddles and/or the bridge itself. So it sounds to me as if they are not parallel, so you need to lower the saddles.

This drawing is not to scale, but I am pretty sure it shows the situation you are in now. So, you should be able to lower the saddles and get what you want. If they are as low as they go - remember to match the radius of the fretboard - and still not low enough, you may need to add a thin shim inside the neck pocket. Lots of shim info in the forums here. Just a business card thickness does a ton more than you may think.

[Tommy el Gato]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

There is no way you can have the same string height at the first fret and the 20th fret. Maybe you're asking too much out of your bass. Or maybe you should go to http://www.fender.com/support/basses.php and read the setup guide and see if you're in the ballpark.

Thanks to the written word not being as effective at communication as looking and feeling, and also a lot of people on here who talk out of their asses, sometimes thoughts aren't communicated exactly as intended, and get a little misinterpreted by the reader. I think this is what's going on here.

That may be the case. Thanks for the help m8. Much appreciated. It is a MIM and although it is a decent instrument, I believe I may just be asking too much of it.

[Foamy]

Originally Posted by Tommy el Gato

That may be the case. Thanks for the help m8. Much appreciated. It is a MIM and although it is a decent instrument, I believe I may just be asking too much of it.

No, it is not asking too much. See the drawing I just added. You are asking a relatively simple thing to do, and it is easy to achieve.
That said, you may not really want it this way exactly. Many folks prefer a slight bow in the neck (relief) to reduce fret buzz. The closer to parallel, however, usually the better your intonation can be set. But that's reeeeally nitpicking.

Anyhow, you should be able to get the action as parallel as you wish within the limitations of the materials involved - and that would be pretty parallel.

[Zooberwerx]

This may help as well:

ALL BASIC SETUP QUESTIONS ANSWERED HERE

I believe there are 4 different sources cited; all are excellent. If nothing else, I've found that action varies from instrument to instrument and also with personal taste and playing style.

Good luck!

Riis

[4Mal]

As Tim mentioned a neck shim may be in order. For me it's more the rule of the day when working on MIM basses. It's no big deal and can work wonders.

That none of your techs have told you this means to me that you need a new tech or a real luthier. This is pretty basic setup stuff ...

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by Tommy el Gato

Now, I've talked to a couple techs who work in shops, and they all say that action should be consistent all the way across the instrument. Here's my problem: It's not.

I've got a Fender Jazz (MIM, from '95) that has never had consistent action, which always sky-rockets in the upper registers. Every time I've taken it to a shop, it comes back with even higher action there in the upper registers. I did just get it back from a fret-level, and it is more consistent, but I still have perfect action at the first and horridly high action at the 20th (which I do use... ).

According to a guide I found here on this forum, my truss-rod is perfect considering it buzzes all the way across the fretboard, consistantly too. The buzz is annoying, but I hesitate from raising the action considering how bad the upper register will be.

I never really thought much of it till recently, considering there's an upright bass at school that does the same thing.

Anyone got any ideas?

It's almost mandatory that you provide some actual measurements of the height of the strings from the fingerboard in a couple of different places so we can determine exactly what your problem is.

If you don't have a rule that you can measure with, simply cut a matchbook cover into several strips about 1/4" wide. Count the number of stacked strips that will just fit between the E string and the top of the frets at the 5th fret, the 12th fret and the 20th fret. Repeat for the G string.

Don't change any of the adjustments until you carefully check and record these measurements.

I'm really surprised that more than one tech has given it back to you with action as bad as you describe. Particularly a tech with the expertise to perform a fret leveling.

[ducatiman]

+1 4mal. you read my mind.

tommyelgato, do some research, ask your tech about shimming. from what you're describing, sounds like the fix. i'm also amazed your tech didn't either

A: shim it (just do it)

or *at least*

B: suggest it and explain it to you. give you the option.


FWIW, i did the same to my MIM jazz. pretty good action up/ down the fretboard. no buzzin, either.


-------------------duc

[pkr2]

Guys, I hate to be disagreeable, but, the OP has not said a single thing that indicates that a shim is in order!!

A shim is called for when the bridge saddle height adjustments are bottomed out and the strings are still too high.

We all need to exercise a bit of caution when offering advice. The person needing help has no way of determining whether the advice is accurate or not and bad advice is much worse than no advice at all. Unless you are expert enough that you could be doing setups at a professional level, you definitely shouldn't be offering advice to a rank beginner.

[JimmyM]

+1 to pkr2. Most basses do not need to be shimmed, especially newer ones, and you are assuming that his neck is out of whack, which hasn't been proven. Again, I refer the OP to the Fender setup guide. Quite frankly, I think if he shims it, all it's going to do is cause him to have the same problem at a different angle. Hell, we don't even know if he actually has a problem.

[PilbaraBass]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Hell, we don't even know if he actually has a problem.

+1, to that...

[Foamy]

Originally Posted by pkr2

Guys, I hate to be disagreeable, but, the OP has not said a single thing that indicates that a shim is in order!!

A shim is called for when the bridge saddle height adjustments are bottomed out and the strings are still too high.

We all need to exercise a bit of caution when offering advice. The person needing help has no way of determining whether the advice is accurate or not and bad advice is much worse than no advice at all. Unless you are expert enough that you could be doing setups at a professional level, you definitely shouldn't be offering advice to a rank beginner.

Huh???

I first mentioned shimming, and if you took the time to read my suggestion, your fears should be allayed.

He asked for advice. We can give him advice or we cannot. I choose the former. It is good advice if taken comprehensively.

Doing this type of setup work is not difficult. It's easy to do.

I see you did not offer advice, and that may be because you don't do this type of setup professionally, and I respect that. But those of us who do this type of work ourselves for every instrument we've ever owned for years know very well that it is very easy to do.

In fact, if I HAD asked for advice, and people told me stuff like 'Hey, unless you're a professional, you shouldn't do it', I'd be pissed after finding out how easy it was, and that I either suffered with crappy setups or paid through the nose for somebody to turn a screw here and there.

I think that a number of folks have proferred great advice here on sites to look at so that the OP can get a fair-to-middlin idea if this is something he wants to tackle himself or not.

But hey, he DID ask, and a few of us DID answer.

This is not rocket science.



EDIT: After re-reading thread, I see that you DID offer advice in another post. Good advice at that as well. Now I am just confused about your point. Are you just tripping about the shimming part????

[Foamy]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

+1 to pkr2. Most basses do not need to be shimmed, especially newer ones, and you are assuming that his neck is out of whack, which hasn't been proven. Again, I refer the OP to the Fender setup guide. Quite frankly, I think if he shims it, all it's going to do is cause him to have the same problem at a different angle. Hell, we don't even know if he actually has a problem.

He has a problem because he says he does. So we know he has a problem.

Now, as (as it) pkr2 already stated, we need real numbers to give real advice. I totally agree.

However, shimming it cannot possibly result in the same problem - geomettrically, it's just not possible to end up in the same situation. However, I agree that shimming it, if not needed or if done wrong, can result in another problem.

But.....he will learn about shimming, and more about how his bass is setup, and that may be a far more valuable use of time - unless he's gigging it tomorrow night!

[Foamy]

Originally Posted by 4Mal

That none of your techs have told you this means to me that you need a new tech or a real luthier. This is pretty basic setup stuff ...

Ayup!

[pkr2]

Originally Posted by Enchanter_Tim

Huh???

I first mentioned shimming, and if you took the time to read my suggestion, your fears should be allayed.

He asked for advice. We can give him advice or we cannot. I choose the former. It is good advice if taken comprehensively.

Doing this type of setup work is not difficult. It's easy to do.

I see you did not offer advice, and that may be because you don't do this type of setup professionally, and I respect that. But those of us who do this type of work ourselves for every instrument we've ever owned for years know very well that it is very easy to do.

In fact, if I HAD asked for advice, and people told me stuff like 'Hey, unless you're a professional, you shouldn't do it', I'd be pissed after finding out how easy it was, and that I either suffered with crappy setups or paid through the nose for somebody to turn a screw here and there.

I think that a number of folks have proferred great advice here on sites to look at so that the OP can get a fair-to-middlin idea if this is something he wants to tackle himself or not.

If the President be connected, in any suspicious manner, with any person, and there be grounds to believe he will shelter him, the House of Representatives can impeach him; they can remove him if found guilty...
.

This is not rocket science.



EDIT: After re-reading thread, I see that you DID offer advice in another post. Good advice at that as well. Now I am just confused about your point. Are you just tripping about the shimming part????

Well, I responded in my first post just as respectfully as I knew how. Since that seems to have fallen on deaf ears, I'll reword my post.

The mention of a shim, in this particular scenario is totally out of place, misleading and confusing to a newbie at setup. It added nothing but confusion to the posters question. I hope that's clear enough because that is precisely my point.

Immediately following your mention of "shimming", there were two other posts (the posts that I was addressing) one of which stated that a shim was the "rule of the day on Fender basses".

Totally incorrect!!!!! However, the OP has no way of knowing that the statement is incorrect.

The other post recommends that the OP find another repair person because a shim wasn't even mentioned by the tech.

The tech who worked on his bass didn't mention a shim because a shim is not even an option, given the fault that he's experiencing and the info that he furnished.

That makes three posts (including yours) that very easily could lead the OP out into left field.

Finally, I don't know where you got the idea that the setup forum exists for the purpose of everybody throwing a few darts at the board in hopes that one might guess right. The poster didn't ask for an education on the finer points of neck shimming etc. He very clearly is interested in getting his bass fixed.

So far as my experience, I've been a regular contributor to the forum since the first post was made here. Over the years, I take some pride in the fact that I have never misled the first poster. I simply don't respond to a post if I don'tknow the answer. I have done repair and setup work professionally for over 45 years, up until my retirement about 5 or 6 years ago.

I hate to see the forum become useless for its intended purpose because of faulty information. This is becoming more and more a problem as time goes on.

"This is not rocket science"
No, it's not rocket science. It is, however, a very exacting science.

Now, if I'm wrong in my outlook of what the setup forum should be about, someone please point out exactly where my logic is breaking down.

Better still, lets get an opinion from the moderator. Am I speaking out of place, Josh? If so, I'll gladly delete this post.

[Foamy]

Note: The text above (hmmm....well, in one of your quotes) which is quoted as mine, is not. I'm talking about the part about the President. Where did that come from?

[Foamy]

Originally Posted by pkr2

Well, I responded in my first post just as respectfully as I knew how. Since that seems to have fallen on deaf ears, I'll reword my post.

The mention of a shim, in this particular scenario is totally out of place, misleading and confusing to a newbie at setup. It added nothing but confusion to the posters question. I hope that's clear enough because that is precisely my point.

Immediately following your mention of "shimming", there were two other posts (the posts that I was addressing) one of which stated that a shim was the "rule of the day on Fender basses".

Totally incorrect!!!!! However, the OP has no way of knowing that the statement is incorrect.

The other post recommends that the OP find another repair person because a shim wasn't even mentioned by the tech.

The tech who worked on his bass didn't mention a shim because a shim is not even an option, given the fault that he's experiencing and the info that he furnished.

That makes three posts (including yours) that very easily could lead the OP out into left field.

Finally, I don't know where you got the idea that the setup forum exists for the purpose of everybody throwing a few darts at the board in hopes that one might guess right. The poster didn't ask for an education on the finer points of neck shimming etc. He very clearly is interested in getting his bass fixed.

So far as my experience, I've been a regular contributor to the forum since the first post was made here. Over the years, I take some pride in the fact that I have never misled the first poster. I simply don't respond to a post if I don'tknow the answer. I have done repair and setup work professionally for over 45 years, up until my retirement about 5 or 6 years ago.

I hate to see the forum become useless for its intended purpose because of faulty information. This is becoming more and more a problem as time goes on.

"This is not rocket science"
No, it's not rocket science. It is, however, a very exacting science.

Now, if I'm wrong in my outlook of what the setup forum should be about, someone please point out exactly where my logic is breaking down.

Better still, lets get an opinion from the moderator. Am I speaking out of place, Josh? If so, I'll gladly delete this post.

You couldda just said 'Yeah, the part about the shim', but calling for a mod? Jeesh. Come on, man. Well, talk to the mod and do whatever you wish. Good luck.
Cheers!

[JimmyM]

Originally Posted by Enchanter_Tim

He has a problem because he says he does. So we know he has a problem.

Now, as (as it) pkr2 already stated, we need real numbers to give real advice. I totally agree.

However, shimming it cannot possibly result in the same problem - geomettrically, it's just not possible to end up in the same situation. However, I agree that shimming it, if not needed or if done wrong, can result in another problem.

But.....he will learn about shimming, and more about how his bass is setup, and that may be a far more valuable use of time - unless he's gigging it tomorrow night!

The guy already admitted that he may not actually have a problem but may actually have too-high expectations based on misinformation handed out freely by teenage "experts" with 6 months experience and a knowledge of a few cool buzzwords like "shim" (not including you on that, but in general). And shimming should be done as a second-to-last resort. And if the guy's not sure if his bass has a problem, then he shouldn't shim the neck. Period.

And if he really wants to learn about bass setups, he should buy a capo, a set of feeler gauges, imperial and metric sets of hex keys, and a few screwdrivers, and set up his bass according to Fender standards posted on their website, then tweak it slightly to his tastes from there. And if he still can't get his bass to play like he wants, THEN he should look into shimming.

[Foamy]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

The guy already admitted that he may not actually have a problem but may actually have too-high expectations based on misinformation handed out freely by teenage "experts" with 6 months experience and a knowledge of a few cool buzzwords like "shim" (not including you on that, but in general). And shimming should be done as a second-to-last resort. And if the guy's not sure if his bass has a problem, then he shouldn't shim the neck. Period.

And if he really wants to learn about bass setups, he should buy a capo, a set of feeler gauges, imperial and metric sets of hex keys, and a few screwdrivers, and set up his bass according to Fender standards posted on their website, then tweak it slightly to his tastes from there. And if he still can't get his bass to play like he wants, THEN he should look into shimming.

I am in like 98% agreement with this - all correct and good advice.