Adjusting Action: Truss Rod or Saddles?

[Din Of Win]

I'm having an issue with action on my Fender style basses.

Essentially, what i'm looking for is an even action across the neck. My 2 Ibanez basses have this, but my fender style basses (MiM Fender and SX) have low action by the nut that gets increasingly higher towards the heel.


There doesn't seem to be a bow in the neck, but as i lower the saddles, the fret-buzz starts up.

So, what is the best way to adress this sort of sittuation?

[Floridabwoy]

Defo need a trussrod adjust. I am sure the pro's will chime in.

[PazzoBasso]

You might need a shim...

Google it - you can DIY

[Lo-E]

Use the string as a "straightedge" to get a reading off of the necks on your Ibanez basses and then see if the Fender-style neck has the same relief.

If it doesn't, adjust it so it matches the others, then set the saddles to match.

If it does, then adjust the saddles only.

If you run out of adjustment at the saddles, you'll need to shim the neck back a little.

[Din Of Win]

Awesome! Thanks, guys!

I've shimmed my Peavey T-20, the MiM and SX aren't as extreem as the Peavey, though... so i'll try some of the suggested things before shimming.


As for the shim, itself... what do you all use? I used 2 or 3 playing cards for the Peavey and it worked like a charm...

[JTE]

The truss rod is there to adjust the relief in the neck, nothing more. While adjusting the truss rod does have the side effect of altering the overall action, it's only part of the evaluation and adjustment. Adjusting the truss rod when relief isn't the problem only causes more problems. So, let's get this right.

THE TRUSS ROD IS NOT FOR ADJUSTING ACTION.

Setting up is a process of evaluating what's wrong AND WHY. Then making the correct adjustments. In your case you say the neck appears straight. That means that the truss rod is either too tight or just right (depending on how much relief you like, how hard you play, and the condition of your frets, but most people like a little relief so a straight neck isn't really the goal).

If the relief is correct, then you need to find the source of your problem. It could be the neck/body angle in which case a shim might be the solution. It could be the saddles aren't at the right place for you. It could be the neck rises at the heel causing the strings to rattle against the higher frets even if the action is too high at the middle frets (this is a bigger problem that simply adjustments won't solve). It could be the frets aren't even.

Figuring out the cause of the problem will lead to the correct solution.

John

[enricogaletta]

I think in your case is a combination of Saddless and Truss Rod setting.
It's important to say that when you make a good setup of the saddless for intonation and highness, you will setting the bridge no so often but you'll make little adjustment on your truss rod due to the change of the weather after, off course, you found the strings action that better fits your needs.
Try to find first the action of the saddless you need, than work on the intonation for each strings, and adjust the truss rod. This setting doesn't go fast, in most case you'll need a couple of days to have the your neck and fingerboard well done, after all wood is wood and needs some time that can be shorten or longer, just depend off course from your bass.
Good Luck for your work!
Cheers. Enrico
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[JTE]

The correct process is to:

A. Make sure the nut is correct (and hardly any factory nuts on mass-produced instruments is really acceptable).
B. Make sure the frets are level and dressed.
C. Adjust the truss rod for proper relief.
D. Adjust the saddles for string height to get the action you want.
E. Only when you've got everything where you want it, adjust the saddles for string length to set the intonation.

Adjusting the bridge saddle height before you adjust the relief only means you'll have to readjust the saddles.

John

[JLS]

Originally Posted by PazzoBasso

You might need a shim...

Google it - you can DIY

No. No. No. No.

The ONLY time shimming the heel is called for, is when you are unable to get the action any lower, and you have run out of adjustment at the bridge.

but as i lower the saddles, the fret-buzz starts up.

Where, on the neck?

[john grey]

I completely agree w/ JTE. Basses (bolt on neck guitars of most mfg) are very individualistic in the sense that wood is very individualistic. I HAVE seen some unbelievable attempts at "adjustment" that bordered on ruining the instrument. If someone is learning the elements of a "setup" then (my opinion only) they should read as much as possible & look for the logic in alterations.
By understanding what is actually accomplished, pitfalls can be avoided. Many years back people fell in love with brass nuts for "sustain" improvement. Today people buy Titanium bridge saddles even though Titanium has a lower atomic weight (translating into a lower density) than ferric or cupric metals.
Ti=47.xx
Fe=55.xx
Cu=63.xx
EVEN if it was denser material, what difference would Ti make than steel? String contact elements have little input into sustain after a fairly meager level.
IMO, if it doesn't make sense; avoid it. I have learned to start with the the most sensible simple solution while recognizing the variables.

[JLS]

I have learned to start with the the most sensible simple solution while recognizing the variables.

You're the aftermarket whiz-bang add-on's, worst nightmare...

[96tbird]

Just for fun, look at this G&L owners manual for setup instructions: http://www.glguitars.com/faq/GLmanual.pdf I especially am intrigued by the part about setting the neck in the pocket while the strings are tuned to pitch! I guess this is how Leo did it, I've never heard a luthier speak of it.

The basics are there, though not much in the way of explanations. A nice beginning point primer.

[Handyman]

Originally Posted by 96tbird

Just for fun, look at this G&L owners manual for setup instructions: http://www.glguitars.com/faq/GLmanual.pdf I especially am intrigued by the part about setting the neck in the pocket while the strings are tuned to pitch! I guess this is how Leo did it, I've never heard a luthier speak of it.

The basics are there, though not much in the way of explanations. A nice beginning point primer.

That's certainly a good starting point. Its also good to keep in mind that any number you see in there for string height and neck relief are a matter of personal preference. I prefer quite a bit less neck relief than that manual specifies, for example.

[Lazarus.Bird]

Originally Posted by JTE

The correct process is to:

A. Make sure the nut is correct (and hardly any factory nuts on mass-produced instruments is really acceptable).
B. Make sure the frets are level and dressed.
C. Adjust the truss rod for proper relief.
D. Adjust the saddles for string height to get the action you want.
E. Only when you've got everything where you want it, adjust the saddles for string length to set the intonation.

Adjusting the bridge saddle height before you adjust the relief only means you'll have to readjust the saddles.

John

I agree with this 100%.

Din, where is the fret buzz when you lower the saddles? I believe someone hit this already, but a shim is only required when backing off the saddle height screws all the way still results in a higher action than desired.

If you are lowering the saddles and getting fret buzz it is likely at the heel of the neck. If this action isn't low enough for you, loosen your truss rod a bit to give the neck some more relief which should let you lower the saddles some more.

Also, when adjusting the heights of the saddles, make sure you attempt to match your neck's curve radius with the bottom of the strings. Some people insist on using a template for this but in reality you can eye it up to get it close.

[sawzalot]

Here's what I do, which has been a successful formula for 20+ years:

1) I fret the A string at the 1st fret and last fret. While doing this, with my third hand I see how much space there is between the string and the frets up and down the neck. I like a tiny bit of relief--I don't measure it, I just like to see a teeny bit of space between the string and frets.

2) If the relief isn't right, I adjust the truss rod A LITTLE BIT. A quarter turn of a truss rod is a LOT. Then repeat step 1.

3) Once I know the neck is set properly, then I turn my attention to the bridge saddles for any remaining adjustments to the action. I adjust the saddles up or down as needed to get the bass playing the way I like it.

4) Once the saddle height has been changed, I adjust intonation by using the 12th fret harmonic and a tuner. Once I get the string in tune with the 12th fret harmonic, I then play the same note at the 12th fret and check the tuner. If the fretted note is sharp, the saddle has to move back (away from the neck). If it's flat, the saddle has to move closer to the neck. Each movement of the saddle changes the tension (and therefore the pitch) of the string, so it's a constant tune-adjust-tune-adjust-tune game. If I'm being really nitpicky I'll try to intonate notes higher than the 12th fret, but realistically I hardly ever play up there. I'll also check the notes down at the 5th fret to make sure they're in tune also. There's usually a discrepancy, meaning usually some of the notes at the fifth fret or so are out of tune. I'll favor getting those notes in tune over the higher ones--but it's a balancing act at this point.

The other thing I do is play every fret on every string up the neck. If one fret buzzes and the others don't, that's a low fret which can only be fixed by a fret dressing or (!) refret.

I also don't get too concerned if, say the notes from the 17th fret on up buzz a little bit. I don't spend much time playing up there, esp. on the B/E/A strings.

[Solarmist]

1) Set the relief first by simultaneously holding down the string on the 1st, and last fret - checking the clearance around the 8th/9th for the proper relief.

2) Set the action height (saddles) ..... in this order. Relief, and action are two separate adjustments related, but independant of each other.

[slagbass]

Originally Posted by Solarmist

1) Set the relief first by simultaneously holding down the string on the 1st, and last fret - checking the clearance around the 8th/9th for the proper relief.

This will work, but it depends on what is "proper" for your playing style. The Sadowsky set up article (check the sticky in this forum...) has a good tip that I have used for many years. Fret at the first position and adjust the truss rod until it plays without buzzing. That's it. The beauty is that YOU know how hard you play and can adjust accordingly.

[JustDavid]

Originally Posted by slagbass

This will work, but it depends on what is "proper" for your playing style. The Sadowsky set up article (check the sticky in this forum...) has a good tip that I have used for many years. Fret at the first position and adjust the truss rod until it plays without buzzing. That's it. The beauty is that YOU know how hard you play and can adjust accordingly.

If it's working that's great. But, from what you've said of it, I can see this method having issues though, as the technique seems to blend truss rod & saddle adjustments/effects while, if a 'whole instrument setup' technique, removing nut issues.

I'm a fan of the 'string as straight edge' (fretting 1st & last) method of achieving a certain neck relief. Though it will take a few tries before someone finds their own optimal relief and might want some tweaking to work around unlevel frets, it's a good objective method to obtain your 'standard' relief in isolation of other factors. & (given good nut slot heights) I find that a good starting point for the rest of the setup procedures.

[Lazarus.Bird]

Originally Posted by slagbass

This will work, but it depends on what is "proper" for your playing style. The Sadowsky set up article (check the sticky in this forum...) has a good tip that I have used for many years. Fret at the first position and adjust the truss rod until it plays without buzzing. That's it. The beauty is that YOU know how hard you play and can adjust accordingly.

This isn't a very good method. Fret buzz and neck relief do not have a 1:1 relationship. Your saddle heights are the bigger factor here.

[PazzoBasso]

Originally Posted by JLS

No. No. No. No.

The ONLY time shimming the heel is called for, is when you are unable to get the action any lower, and you have run out of adjustment at the bridge.

I'm not sure this is true - but I speak only as an avid tweaker of my own basses...

As I mentioned in my previous post - a shim "might" be required... & is a pretty quick & easy solution when you are unable to get the action any lower (OR HIGHER) and run out of adjustment at the bridge, or if the neck is at the wrong angle relative to the body...