Another intonation problem.

[CharlieDog]

I've read the sticky and have searched for something similar, but I can't find exactly what I'm looking for, so here's a thread.

I'm adjusting the saddles on mah bass and I've got the tuner to read that the strings are in tune open and at the 12th fret. However, when I fret any note (5th fret, 7th, wherever) the tuner reads it as sharp. This is happening on all strings. Is this normal, as I haven't read anything in regards to frets that aren't the 12th.

[Zooberwerx]

Do your 12th fret harmonics and fretted notes match exactly?

Riis

[MonetBass]

Originally Posted by Zooberwerx

Do your 12th fret harmonics and fretted notes match exactly?

Riis

This. It's how you should set your intonation. The other fretted notes may not be right on because... well, that's the way it is.

[JTE]

First, (please excuse me if this comes off as demeaning, but it's a common misunderstanding I've seen), did you compare the open string (or its 12th fret harmonic) to the fretted note? Comparing the open string to the harmonic is pretty pointless because unless your strings are in really bad shape, the 12th fret harmonic and the open string WILL be an exact octave- that's the physics of a vibrating string). So, the first step is to make sure you're comparing what you need to. If the open string or its harmonic exactly match the fretted note at the 12th fret, then you need to look at other culprits.

Now, it's possible that the frets are off, but given modern manufacturing makes it less likely for this to be the problem. It could be excessive bow in the neck, action too high, not having a good witness point for the strings off the bridge saddle, or a nut that's too high. Of these, the most likely culprit is the nut. Almost every factory nut for mass-produced basses and guitars is cut too high. So check that. After you're sure the nut's right, then set the truss rod to have the right amount of relief for the way you play. Then adjust the action for comfortable playability (and that's dependent on how YOU play, there just ain't a single spec that covers these last two). Then, press down on the strings right where they come off the bridge saddle towards the nut. This helps the string conform to the saddle and gives it a good point from which to vibrate. Only after all this should you set the intonation.

If this doesn't help, then I'd suggest taking it to a really good set-up person who can look for other problems.

John

[okcrum]

Yep, set the intonation at the 12th fret like you are doing - not sure why no one has noticed that yet. It won't be perfect at the other frets because of fingered tension and other factors. I've seen basses (forget who makes them) with zigzag frets to overcome this remaining intonation problem.

[CharlieDog]

Originally Posted by JTE

First, (please excuse me if this comes off as demeaning, but it's a common misunderstanding I've seen), did you compare the open string (or its 12th fret harmonic) to the fretted note? Comparing the open string to the harmonic is pretty pointless because unless your strings are in really bad shape, the 12th fret harmonic and the open string WILL be an exact octave- that's the physics of a vibrating string). So, the first step is to make sure you're comparing what you need to. If the open string or its harmonic exactly match the fretted note at the 12th fret, then you need to look at other culprits.

No, I fretted the 12th and compared it to the open string. It didn't come off as demeaning, mostly because I didn't think about that possibility, though I didn't use harmonics.

Now, it's possible that the frets are off, but given modern manufacturing makes it less likely for this to be the problem. It could be excessive bow in the neck, action too high, not having a good witness point for the strings off the bridge saddle, or a nut that's too high. Of these, the most likely culprit is the nut. Almost every factory nut for mass-produced basses and guitars is cut too high. So check that. After you're sure the nut's right, then set the truss rod to have the right amount of relief for the way you play. Then adjust the action for comfortable playability (and that's dependent on how YOU play, there just ain't a single spec that covers these last two). Then, press down on the strings right where they come off the bridge saddle towards the nut. This helps the string conform to the saddle and gives it a good point from which to vibrate. Only after all this should you set the intonation.

Thanks for this information. I've already got the relief and action to where it should be, as I've been playing her quite a while. I didn't know about the nut situation or about pressing the strings down, though that makes sense. Why are the nuts cut like you say?

Originally Posted by okcrum

It won't be perfect at the other frets because of fingered tension and other factors. I've seen basses (forget who makes them) with zigzag frets to overcome this remaining intonation problem.

I'll look into those, just for the fact that it sounds really interesting.

Thank you to everyone who answered. I've been playing for a while now, but this aspect of stringed instruments is a really daunting thing to get into.

[JTE]

Originally Posted by CharlieDog

Thanks for this information. I've already got the relief and action to where it should be, as I've been playing her quite a while. I didn't know about the nut situation or about pressing the strings down, though that makes sense. Why are the nuts cut like you say?

Cutting a nut correctly is a time consuming, painstaking process. And at the end it comes down to make a few passes with a the file, restringing to pitch, checking it, and repeating. Now if you go too far with a file, then you have to start all over again. That's why most factory nuts are cut too high. Leave it a little high and you won't run the risk of having to start over again, so they can get the product shipped sooner.

Read the sticky threads at the top of this forum for instructions on set-up, and see if it's something you want to tackle. I tweak the nuts on instruments I buy (haven't had to do it on my three fretted Laklands, nor two of my three Guild guitars), and have for about 20 years. It's not really hard, but you have to be patient and plan on a few "do overs" when you're starting to learn this.

In addition, there is no way to get a fretted instrument to play exactly in tune all over the neck. But there are some things you can do to help alleviate the problems, besides the tips in this thread.

Make sure you use a really accurate tuner. Now, that means to me, a Peterson. No matter what name is on most tuners, they use the same quartz timing device and have pretty much the same accuracy. The difference between ± 1 cent (the Boss TU-3 for example, but most tuners are in this range) and the ±1/10 cent of the Peterson is probably meaningless for getting your bass in tune at a gig. But, when setting the intonation, it can become critical. If your open string is flat by 1 cent and your fretted note is sharp by 1 cent, your typical tuner will tell you they're the same note, but you're off by 2% of a half-step. The more accurate tuner will only allow you to be off by 1/10 of a cent either way. So, start with a good tuner.

Then, hold the bass in playing position while doing the intonation. The weight of the headstock can move the neck enough to throw things off.

I also pluck the notes about once every second and read the attack of the note rather than the sustain. That's what you hear when you play mostly, so use that.

Then if it's really exasperating, try this trick (I learned this from a Johnny Smith- the reknowned jazz guitarist from the '50s and '60's- in a Guitar Player Magazine article on set-up back in the '80s). Compare the fretted note and the harmonic at the 17th frets. To get some instruments to play acceptably in tune across the neck, I've had to average the results of the 12th and 17th frets to come to a compromise.

And finally, don't be afraid to tweak the intonation so it works for where YOU play. If you don't go past the 7th fret much, then adjust things so the bass plays in tune in the lower registers and don't worry that it's a little out up at the 15th fret.

Hope this helps!
John

[Fishheadjoe]

The instructions that came with my Peterson Tuner suggest that you tune the fretted note at the 5th fret. You then finger the same string at the 17th fret (an octave above the 5th fret) and adjust from there.
It has worked for me!
Fishheadjoe

[okcrum]

Some discussion of intonation, tempering, and tuning:

http://www.guyguitars.com/eng/guygui...eitentest.html

True Temperament guitars:

http://www.truetemperament.com/site/index.php

EDIT: 1st link talks about why we don't necessarily hear even tempered notes as in tune, among other things. It's tailored to guitars, but is applicable to bass.

2nd link is to one of the zigzag fret guitar makers.

[Pilgrim]

Originally Posted by CharlieDog

I'm adjusting the saddles on mah bass and I've got the tuner to read that the strings are in tune open and at the 12th fret. However, when I fret any note (5th fret, 7th, wherever) the tuner reads it as sharp. This is happening on all strings.

A question that's not meant to be smart-ass, but serious: can you HEAR any difference, or it is just a minor tic on the tuner?

Tuners are more accurate than the human ear. If the open string is in tune and the 12th fret is in tune, then IMO it's intonated. If it sounds good, you're pursuing an issue that only matters to the tuner. Play it and enjoy it.

[Skitch it!]

Fretting machines and fret seating are not perfectly accurate, ime I set the intonation so the notes played on the string are in tune, I wouldn't do an intonation job just from the 12th fret reference, more along the scale of the string with flat fretting (avoid bending), I think you have to allow for the neck and it's shape/fretting for these minor inconsistencies ; )

[Pilgrim]

My point is - the frets are where they are. They're not moving. If the open string and 12th fret agree, why not just play it if it sounds good?

If it sounds good to you, it will sound good to the audience. A few cents +/- may be visible on a tuner but it's irrelevant to the real world.

[JLS]

f it sounds good, you're pursuing an issue that only matters to the tuner. Play it and enjoy it.

Basic rule of music: If it sounds good, it is good. Stop fussing, and play.

[Skitch it!]

Originally Posted by Pilgrim

My point is - the frets are where they are. They're not moving. If the open string and 12th fret agree, why not just play it if it sounds good?

If it sounds good to you, it will sound good to the audience. A few cents +/- may be visible on a tuner but it's irrelevant to the real world.

I do agree a few cents won't make much of a difference, unless your into your chordal stuff, then it does make a difference. Notes phasing against other chord tones on the instrument will 'beat' against each other, rather than singular line tonality, which is much more forgiving on the ear.

As far as intonation, I just get it as close as I can for it to be good above the 12th to 22nd fret on each string, play some chords after that and adjust again from their intonation, to acclimatise to the fretboard characteristics.

[Mrdak]

Yo Charlie............ Be sure to set the intonation with the bass in the playing position, rather than laying it on in it's back.......

Unless of course you play a lot of gigs laying down